Has anyone noticed any differences in driver shaft performance between setting the dominant neutral position at either 3 o'clock or alternatively at 9 o'clock for a right handed golfer? If so, was such difference possibly related to any significant difference in the CPM reading between S1 and S2, or does the positioning of dominant neutral between those two positions change shaft performance even when the S1 and S2 readings are close?
First, on a graphite shaft there can be more than one NBP. I typically steer clear of spine finding alone on shafts as the final arbiter of orientation - I do use a spine finder but as primary input to the FLO process on both graphite and steel.
So, based on the assumption that you have the correct cpm for the player, then the short answer is no. I don't think I have come across a graphite that has had greater than 8 cpm variation between the cpm of the lowest and highest plane. I have oriented them in different positions in a set of demo clubs (steel shafts) to "test" the spine/FLO theory, and people do notice a difference in irons with the irons that have NBP in different positions. Consistently they have all identified the demo club with NBP at 10:30 (to use the clock!) as the worst feeling and performing. The ones that have NBP at 3, 6, 9, or 12 are all more popular with players - with NBP at 9 (rh golfer) proving the most popular when they are forced to choose. Take that for what you will.
But as for drivers, once I have found the correct frequency for the player, then aligning the shaft with FLO in the 3-9, or 9-3 o'clock position does not appear to make a significant difference from each other such that I would recommend one over the other. The significant difference that they all comment on is that the club feels much better and plays better in terms of consistency.
In Long Drive we have moved beyond simply matching a player to shaft stiffness and have moved into the realms of shaft profiling, so much so that CPM is now sometimes not even mentioned by the marketeers of sophisticated LD shafts. Yes, I agree with the 8 CPM variance. The most I have ever heard anyone mention is 10 CPM.
Unfortunately my L.D. hitting is not consistent enough to reach any firm conclusions as yet, but initial testing suggests that (going beyond the massive improvement to be gained by aligning at either 3-9 or 9-3) greater distance appears to come at 3-9, and greater consistency at 9-3. If this is substantiated then, as yet, I cannot see the logic.
But, the book remains open on this one until such time as others have provided me with much more input. Sadly though, few players have the required understanding, ability, and testing experience to provide meaningful input.
Hopefully, the shaft manufacturers will eventually research such issues and provide the necessary information.
Thank you for your valuable input. Input from an expert like yourself is always immensely welcome.
Simple question, do any large manufacturers, for this example Taylor Made as that's what I'm currently using, align shafts in this way as standard now, to the best of your knowledge?
(ii) Put out into the public domain any details of their shafts' profiles.
If you enjoy reading have at look at 'The Search for the Perfect Driver' by Tom Wishon which is available very cheaply from the USA via Amazon. It should be read by everyone who even has a passing interest in golf. It is suitable for both beginners and experts. Very easy reasing.
Also, have a look at www.clubmakerschoice.com/page1.html
No so long ago shafts were described simply in terms of stiffness, which is referred to as 'C.P.M.' - cycles per minute - how often they vibrate if twanged in a vice! (However, there is no universal standard for such and one company's labels mean something entirely different to those of another company).
Nowadays, we all appreciate that old fashioned terms such as 'bend / kick point' are simplistic nonsense: A shaft bends throughout its entire length, but not all shafts bend in the same manner.
A graphite shaft manufacturer can manufacture a shaft using different techniques and materials so that it operates differently in its three key areas (butt, centre, and tip) and CPM can vary so much between those areas that mentioning one CPM is entirely misleading. Hence, one now looks at all key shaft areas, and that is known as 'shaft profile.'
How does this work? Let me provide an illustration:
Someone who swings applying fast immediate power at the top of their backswing (backswing-to-downswing transition) may require a stiff butt section; how the next two sections are decided upon depend on how you accelerate and whether there is an early release of the wrist-cock. A late release signifies that a stiff tip section is required.
Different players require different shaft rgenerally get this in the correct range for the shaft offered.
All best shaft manufactures provide such info. You will, for example, find such on the internet at the top manufacturers web sites, in the Golfsmith Europe catalogue, and on my web site sanderslongdrive. (Long Drive section).
Iron shafting is in some respects an entirely different science which requires paying careful attention to and matching frequency when building, but not the same sourcing criteria for shaft profile. (In some respects we specialist driver builders have learned from iron builders with particular regard to the importance of swing weight).
There is common ground insofar as ALL SHAFTS MUST BE SPINE ALIGNED when building. Again, this never happens when manufacturers build irons. Without spine alignment one cannot come close to having a consistent set of irons. Having my Mizuno MP-32s dismantled and set up again by an expert cost me more than the irons themselves, but afterwards iron performance was in a different league!
Irons are not my field and I give way for another specialist to advise you.
Once I clicked what you meant by shaft profiles I took the question down, but thanks for the answer which gladly, for a PGA Pro, I mostly knew anyway!!
However, it's always good to hear from experts in a specific field, clearly you and rgjusa are that and I find it very interesting how much knowledge is available.
My reason for asking is that I have recently been given a new set of T Mades with S300 which are better than any irons I have ever hit, I thought with the cast head I might lose a bit of distance control, but far from it. I was just casually wondering if they align/pure the shafts now, but I did doubt it.
I have answered this question in my above amended reply.
I used to have my shafts PURED by Golfsmith but am quite happy now with the results I get from setting up my shafts with my inexpensive JB spine tool which easily finds N1, N2, S1, and S2. So, I no longer bother with PUREing. Also, as you know PUREing is partly a waste of time unless the shaft is earlier trimmed to its final length. I bet that Golfsmith are asked to PURE countless full length shafts!
Unfortunately most club builders do not even attempt to spine align, and in many cases they have just have not kept up to date with evolvments with current research and ever changing technology.
When one stands over some club builders they simply have not a clue how to spine align, and even if they get it right they omit to afterwards adjust in order to achieve flat line oscillation with the head in place.
I too have Dynamic Gold S300s in my irons and I do not like them. Unlike Long Drive (where one crushes the ball) I only hit my irons at 80% and find them far too stiff. If I had them re-built again I would have soft graphite shafts, and also insert poly. shock absorbers into the shafts. I appreciate that an element of consistency might be lost but once again (I used to use soft lady's shafts) I would feel the head kicking through at impact and again be free from muscular trouble after a couple of hours carving up divots with my wedges on the practice ground.
I play golf for sheer pleasure (not to compete) and Long Drive for the adrenalin. With irons I want something which makes me happy, but with drivers I require ultimate performance.
So, for sensible irons advice you require someone with a professional attitude and a love of the subject. With regard to irons I have neither, so I have not put in the several hundred hours of research which I have done with drivers.
Everyone deserves the very best advice and if I can't cut it then I walk away.
Bob, I can re-iterate what Viper has said. I have TM R7 TP's with S300's which I thought were spined. By sheer chance I checked my 5 iron and it was NBP 9 o'clock. I then checked SW and it was NBP 3 o'clock. I thought 'OK, TM have done these and in the shorter irons they must flip the allignment for control and feel.' I only did these 2 clubs to check and would wait to the winter to re-grip all clubs.
I then bought various different grips to decide which ones to re-do all clubs with. By chance I decided to check the allignment on my 8 iron - RUBBISH, 1.30. Re-gripped some more and thought I would check the 4 iron - 6 o.clock. 4 clubs checked and not one the same.
So now my winter task is to do them all. Rgjusa already answered a query I had on NBP allignment. I did my SuperQuad a few months back and really like it. I do not know if it will make much difference but at least I will know in my head they are 100%. From then on in it is down to me and my swing.
I am upgrading my hut/workshop and will do this when it is ready. I am lucky enough to have access to large toolrooms and workshops. I have made my own spine finder and shaft puller. I am now going to mount these on vices positioned in my new bench. This should keep me busy and happy through the winter.
Viper, it's actually pretty simple stuff if you have the equipment. Being Engineer to trade also helps. Without breaking to many copyrights you can do it with Bar Stock, Tube, Lathe, Bearings, Welder, Screwed rod, drills etc. Just checked the web for photos, info etc. to 'design' and build them.
Everyone to their own trade. I have already trained and qualified to be a solicitor, freelance writer, clinical hypnotherapist, NLP practitioner, sports psychologist, dog trainer, and club builder. I am also an unqualified, bricklayer, plasterer, electrician, tiler, carpet layer, car parts fitter, and Long Drive coach. And, a trainee husband.
Most days I simply feel old and tired, and very definitely not up to learning engineering!
I used to keep learning new things partly because I considered most people just not up to the job that they professed to be qualified in, and perhaps arrogantly thought that I could better with a bit of application. I have always sought very high standards.
Nowadays I'm re-married (after many years of being single) and I either just tend to go with the flow, write a cheque, or better still let my wife deal with life's many aggravations.
I love to find experts whom I can rely on and even admire (as one cannot learn everything) but they are rarer than hens' teeth.
I have however found the following experts if anyone needs details (e-m me direct please as I can disappear from forums for months at a time), and someone really has to be brilliant for me to recommend them:
Chiropractitioner (Northampton / Kettering)
Remedial dentist, for when regular dentists have been negligent (Bedford)
Golf Coach (Northampton)
Allergy (eg. pollen) hospital / supplier of pure (and often rare) supplements for athletes (Hemel Hempstead)
Supplier of club building equipment and components (trade only) (St. Ives, Cambs.)
Golf irons builder (Whittlebury Park G.C.)
Wife (exclusive contract)
Short list isn't it, after almost 58 years on earth.
I have been following this thread and others, I am about to fit my new shaft. I have built a spine finding contraption that works very well and I have found a definate spine and a NBP at 180 degrees to each other (UST V2) and I'm all ready for fixing.
Now I have read about "toe droop" and the opinion/practice of fitting shafts with the "spine up" (12 oclock) to counter toe droop!
With graphite shafts you can usually find more than one spine/NBP. I only use the spine finding on a graphite shaft as input to the FLO process to find the most stable plane. That being said if you want to prevent toe droop then place it in the 12-6 o'clock plane. Personally I prefer to have the stable plane in the 9-3 o'clock position with the NBP at the target. As part of the SST PURE company's submission to the USGA rules committee, they agreed that they would put the shaft in the neutral position only (12-6) to prevent toe droop (the SST patent covers the ability to influence the ball flight by placing the spine/NBP/stable plane in different positions). I suggest you experiment to see what suits you best.
Very good information in this thread...if I may add a couple thoughts?
As Viper said, there is no industry standards in regards to shaft stiffness...not only can flex determiniations vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, but we've found that some manufaturers have inconsitencies from model to model within their own brand (Grafalloy is a great example).
Also, to adequately determine shaft performance, measuring stiffness at butt, mid and tip are not enough. When profiling shafts measurements are taken at every 5" beam length.
This way you can see exactly how a shaft will perform, and to a certain point "Feel" in relation to others.
All shafts wil have at least one discernable NBP... I prefer to have everything assembled with the NBP facing the target....
Bear in mind to assemble a club, orientating the shaft/spine with the intention of altering flight (fade, distance) is against regulations.
All shafts have a spine...some more obvious...some almost undetectable.
When it comes to graphite, price does not guarantee quality...while some of the upper end shafts like Oziks, Accras, as well as most nano shafts have negligable delflection numbers...you will also find that fiber wound shafts that are dirt cheap will also show minimal deflection...simply becasue the fiber wound shafts are computer made, whereas the more expensive shafts are sheet rolled and more prone, or succeptable to human error and wider tolerances.
It is very uncommon to find a low end fiber wound shaft to deflect greater than 3cpms...However, I recently received a TaylorMade TP with upper end shaft that had a 13 cpm differential!
Lastly, when inspecting a shaft...never, ever do it with the grip on...it should be done with a 5" clamp-to-shaft docking station.
