Not realy it stiffens it more when you do the tip.

All it is likley to do is make you DownTheVERYMiddle.

A lot of fairway shafts are a driver shaft just with the tip trimed and butt trimmed to length. As already said it is tip trimming which very slightly changes the shaft flex.

The other slight effect is that it will change the swing weight which is why some might find it feels slightly different. This can be overcome by fitting a slightly heavier grip or adding lead tape at the grip end. In a driver most people would probably note notice the change.

JimP (8.5) wrote (see)

A lot of fairway shafts are a driver shaft just with the tip trimed and butt trimmed to length. As already said it is tip trimming which very slightly changes the shaft flex.

The other slight effect is that it will change the swing weight which is why some might find it feels slightly different. This can be overcome by fitting a slightly heavier grip or adding lead tape at the grip end. In a driver most people would probably note notice the change.

I shortened my driver shaft length and it's been a positive change. When I look in my bag I see that that my 3 wood is quite short but realistically the difference in shaft length is on 0.75" in length! But on both clubs I would say I have not noticed any distance issues. 

Sometimes I do get out driven by people who use longer drivers (read TM - here) but this is not frequent and the people who do it usually hit one good drive in a round and spray the rest. But if that keeps them happy then that's their choice. However I will stick with the shorter driver and play from the fairway as often as possible, besides 260 yards is not an embarassing average for a drive. 

Hi Dandy Don,

Shortening a shaft at either end will stiffen a golf club very significantly, a 1" off the butt end will change the swingweight by as much as 6 swing weights which will make a huge difference in feel. Any time you cut down the shaft from the butt it should be swing weighted first, the change in length made and weight added to the head to bring the swing weight back up to the same as before, you can do this by lead tape placed any where on the sole, preferably towards the heel as this will increase launch angle due to the change in the centre of gravity. Srew in weights can also be used if there are weight ports in your clubhead, lighter grips will work but an 1" requires quite a lot of weight almost 12 grms, tip weights can be glued inside the tip of the shaft but no more than above the hosel. Adding weight to the head brings the flexability back that was cut off, but your right to shorten your driver, most drivers are way to long for all us amatuers, by shortening your driver you will have more chance of hitting your drives out of the middle of the clubface, you will gain back the distance and be more accurate because of this, the average driver on the PGA tour this year is 441/2", Bubba Watson the longest on tour uses a 431/2" driver, distance is 85% loft and 15% length of club.

Reagrds,

Bob Frost

Qualified Clubmaker

Bob Frost wrote (see)

1" off the butt end will change the swingweight by as much as 6 swing weights

Shock tactics ???

I doubt most people are capable of knowing/feeling swingweight changes. Certainly many people choose drivers based on length/direction off the tee rather than the swingweight.

Hi Bt,

I believe the question in the original thread was what would happen if I cut 1" off my driver, and I told him.In my experience the vast majority of people can detect a change of 2 swingweights or more, it makes a huge difference in being able to hit the ball out of the middle of the clubface or not. Have you tried it ? do you know what your driver or irons swing weight, do they match your swing speed ? Length of driver is probably the most critical factor in driver fitting and yet it is completely overlooked by the manufacturers on their demo days, because there would be to many variables and to costly to change.

Bob Frost

Proffessional Club fitter

Bob Frost wrote (see)

Hi Dandy Don,

Shortening a shaft at either end will stiffen a golf club very significantly, a 1" off the butt end will change the swingweight by as much as 6 swing weights which will make a huge difference in feel. (not true)

Any time you cut down the shaft from the butt it should be swing weighted first, the change in length made and weight added to the head to bring the swing weight back up to the same as before, (why, if the heft is still fine for the user?)

you can do this by lead tape placed any where on the sole, preferably towards the heel as this will increase launch angle due to the change in the centre of gravity. (What about on the legal limit drivers)

Srew in weights can also be used if there are weight ports in your clubhead, lighter grips will work but an 1" requires quite a lot of weight almost 12 grms, tip weights can be glued inside the tip of the shaft but no more than above the hosel. (lighter grips do not work - anything under or above the hand does not affect weight perception - but does alter static swingweight)

Adding weight to the head brings the flexability back that was cut off, (not true - shaft frequency is hardly changed with cutting the butt end but adding weight will soften the flex)

 but your right to shorten your driver, most drivers are way to long for all us amatuers, by shortening your driver you will have more chance of hitting your drives out of the middle of the clubface, you will gain back the distance and be more accurate because of this, the average driver on the PGA tour this year is 441/2", Bubba Watson the longest on tour uses a 431/2" driver, distance is 85% loft and 15% length of club.

Reagrds,

Bob Frost

Qualified Clubmaker

What a load of baloney Bob

I'm not a clubmaker but I know guys who are and quite honestly for someone who builds clubs this is an example of the smoke and mirrors b*llsh*t that some clubfitters rely on.

Please answer a couple of questions

a) What is swingweight? 

b) Is swingweight for clubs predetermined?

c) Why is there such a thing as swingweight?

d) How will adding weight to a clubhead change the MOI - and what are the potential problems of doing this?

e) Does an antiquated method of matching heft in hickory shafted clubs of 100 years ago really stand up with the use of ultra lightweight modern shafts of today.

Dandy don, changing the weight of the grip will only alter the static swingweight which does not mean a thing. It will change the overall weight of the club imperceptibly but cannot affect the apparent weight (heft) of the club when it is swung, because it is at the fulcrum of the lever, your wrists. Balance weight (swingweight) is a measurement taken 14" from the butt end and is just an old way of making the clubs in a whole set match.

There is no set swingweight that a club must comply with - despite what is implied. If your preferred heft (the feel of the club in the swing) happens to be C1, D1, or whatever, swingweighting was just a method of getting all your clubs to feel the same.

You don't have to have a D4 swingweight just because that is the one that manufacturers build every driver to (approximately). It is generally too hefty and the club too long for an average player.

Cutting an inch off won't change anything significant and will probably, for the average player, be a benefit.

The End

Hi Dandy don'

Fitting a lighter grip will help but you will still be perhaps 4 swingweights short, its far easier to add weight to the sole of the driver, theres not a problem with this as it will not come off if stuck correctly and in any case all the pro's do it with all their clubs.

Bob Frost

Proffessional Clubmaker

Bob Frost wrote (see)

 its far easier to add weight to the sole of the driver, theres not a problem with this as it will not come off if stuck correctly and in any case all the pro's do it with all their clubs.

Bob Frost

Proffessional Clubmaker

whoooaaa !! Taz,

I haven't come on here to score points with people who think they know, but to help peolple from my experiences. You obviously know about swingweight as you answered some pointers in your later thread, the fact remains that if you shorten the club then it will play differently, because the SHAFT is stiffer and the only way to get the flexibilty back is add weight.It doesn' matter what we call it swingweighting or frequency matching (and yes the frequency does change dramatically cuttting an 1" of the butt) its just a measurement of matching one club so that they play the same. If you replace a regular shaft with a stiff shaft, same length same swingweight, same clubhead it plays/feels different. You go on about heft which basically is weight and if you don't change the weight the heft is the same, but in order to swing  clubs consistently with the same swing each time, as irons get shorter and therefore stiffer the headweight has to increase  so they fel the same , thats why a 9 iron head weighs more than a 3 iron head.

The swingweight scale was invented in the 1920's a good 10 years  after the invention of steel shafts, and was never primarally used with hickory shafts !!Its still what all clubmakers and manufacturers use to this day.

Adding lead to your club can make you hit it straighter and more consistently,so why not every pro on every tour does it.

Bob Frost

Proffessional clubmaker

Dandy don (13.7) wrote (see)

JimP (8.5) wrote (see)

Is it not the other way round Jim? You add weight to the head or put a lighter grip on,thats what I've been told by quite a few people.

My mistake.  I was thinking swing weight is relative to the head end when it is actually relative to the butt end. Taking one inch off the butt moves the head one inch closer to the fulcrum point.
 

Bob Frost wrote (see)

Adding lead to your club can make you hit it straighter and more consistently,so why not every pro on every tour does it.

Surely it would be better if their club manufacturers got it right with all their technology. Fact is the pro's probably tweak the clubs themselves, without even thinking about S/W.

Bob, I don't want to be pedantic about this but swingweight is a personal thing.

The reason I fired up, is someone felt they needed a more wieldy driver and they wanted to shorten it and asked, would it be ok to take 1" off the butt end. I and others said yes, with the caveat that there could be a perceived weight (heft) difference.

You then implied that it was essential to restore the OEM swingweight

. . . my question is WHY?

Perhaps less heft will suit the individual and enable them to control the club better - even swing a little faster perhaps - and with a potentially faster swingspeed the last thing you need is to soften the shaft by weighting up the head.

Hi Bt,

Your right it was a bit over the top to say all pro's on all clubs, I meant to say most pro's on at least one of their clubs.

Bob Frost

Proffessional Clubfitter

Hi Dandy,

To answer your question you need 2 grms per swingweight, that equates to 1" by 1/2" lead tape.

Bob Frost

Proffessional Clubfitter

Hi Taz

Lets put you straight

Surely it would be better if their club manufacturers got it right with all their technology.       Its not in their interest to build clubs that will last a few years, how would they sell next years model if it isn't different ?

Fact is the pro's probably tweak the clubs themselves, without even thinking about S/W.   Unless of course they know that 1" of lead tape = 1 swingweight

Bob, I don't want to be pedantic about this but swingweight is a personal thing.  I don't think I said It wasn't

The reason I fired up, is someone felt they needed a more wieldy driver and they wanted to shorten it and asked, would it be ok to take 1" off the butt end. I and others said yes, with the caveat that there could be a perceived weight (heft) difference.   The heft or weight  in the head would not change !!!

You then implied that it was essential to restore the OEM swingweight

. . . my question is WHY?   Because the shaft would be stiffer and to get back to how it felt and played before weight has to be added to the head, which I believed thats what Dandy wanted.

Perhaps less heft will suit the individual and enable them to control the club better - even swing a little faster perhaps - and with a potentially faster swingspeed the last thing you need is to soften the shaft by weighting up the head.    Youv'e obviously got a thing about heft which is the weight of the clubhead to give clout, adding weight would benefit as a heavier club is easier to control,swing a garden cane and then an iron pole see which you control better.

To be fair Nick,  Bob hasn't said that the cog would be changed and if you take a look at his website, he does dispel a few of those myths.

My usual challenge though is against those who imply that swingweight is anything more than a technique for matching club heft.

Ok on the range tomorrow I will try 3 shafts in my R11TP  driver if I have time.

I will use my Driver shaft 45.25"

3 wood  43"

5 wood 42.5" and see how they feel.

Interesting that the bog standard R11 driver is 45.75", I assume that is when it is hit by a robot it will go further than the TP but when hit by us mortals it will normally go further into trouble 

Sure do Ossie,

If you could balance a driver head on its sole say on a centre punch, something the size of a ball point pen (there is a gadget for doing this) then mark it, then do the same on its face, where the two marks would intersect this would be known as its centre of gravity or COG. Adding weight anywhere in any direction will change this point, generally speaking the best place to add weight to a driver is on the sole and towards the heel, this draws the COG back and lower down, getting the COG lower below the centre of the golf ball (also its COG) will help get the ball in the air ( a higher launch angle) quicker and higher which is want you want. when you see screw weights in a driver the one at the back is really the only one which works, those on the side don't really do much.

Hope i have explained this clearly enough, try it by taping either lead tape or a 10 pence piece with duck tape and see if it helps you,

Bob frost

Proffessional Clubfitter

Thanks Chris,

I surely won't

Regards,

Bob

Hi John Foster,

thats a good idea, I would be interested in your results.

Bob

Bob Frost wrote (see)

Hi Dandy,

To answer your question you need 2 grms per swingweight, that equates to 1" by 1/2" lead tape.

Bob Frost

Proffessional Clubfitter

Bit confused bob,if 2g = 1 swingweight then by taking off 1" thats 12g (i think) so in theory if I fit a grip which is 12g lighter then would that not balance it out? or since the winn lite is 20g lighter have I gone 8g in the wrong direction?

I think 44.5" is the optimal length for me having played it previously in a club built for me by a professional club maker at cannons court.Unfortunately the head was illegal.

How much does 1" of graphite shaft weigh btw?

Ossie (6.7) wrote (see)

Bob Frost... Do you really believe that you can alter the CoG of a golf club by adding weight to a certain part of the club head?

Well that's what the moveable weights do.

Taz, Bob did say it would change, but I think in one of your posts you mixed up CoG with COR (page 1).

2 points:

1.   Mid-teen handicappers going on about the swingweight of their driver is a waste of time, the variances and faults in their swing far outweigh, a million-fold, any swingweight issues.   All this business of "I'm off 14 and have cut my driver down, how do I deal with the swingweight change?" is pretty spurious.   If the driver/player combination was that good, why feel the need to cut it down in the first place?   Same with putters.

2.   Bob, would you please learn how to spell "professional".

Thank you

Ok went to the range and used my driver, 3wood & 5 wood shafts.

After a couple of swings with each shaft they all felt normal to me. Swing weight, What did that have to do with anything, they all felt the same. Distance wise there was not a massive amount between them. It was blowing hard from left to right so the flight and my swing made a true comparison quite hard and would be better doing that on the course but first impressions for me would be stuff the swing weight and cut 1" off your driver.

DISCLAIMER

(JF 13.9 can not be held responsible for any one stuffing up there driver and it's your own fault if you do it, but give it ago anyway.)

Think I agree with Taz on this one about swing weight.

I attack my clubs semi regularly (particularly the driver). Shorten, lengthen, thin grip, super thick grip, change shaft - flex & weight. Never once have I measured and have only briefly considered swing weight. As long as it 'feels' OK then it's fine. There is no need to worry about getting it back to 'original'

OP about stiffening up - 1" of the top won't make a massive difference to the stiffness IMO & experience. It will do something technically measureable but doubt you would feel it.

Opinion on shortening - no brainer, should do it.

I currently play 44 1/4" but have experimented all the way up to 46" (or 48" can't remember of the top of my head what is the legal maximum in the Rules of golf) in increments.

I gained no noticable distance on the longer clubs, felt awkward(ish) and sprayed more. Shaft length has been increased so a robot can hit it further and aid claims of 'EXTRA LENGTH (shaft or hit??) & FASTER CLUB HEAD SPEED'.

Around 44" is long enough to whack it out there nice and straight and in play (a must at my course). It also makes it easier to fit in the boot . Get your saw out, chop it, re-grip and give it a go. If all else fails you can extend it back out a bit.

John Foster (13.9) wrote (see)

Ok went to the range and used my driver, 3wood & 5 wood shafts.

After a couple of swings with each shaft they all felt normal to me. Swing weight, What did that have to do with anything, they all felt the same. Distance wise there was not a massive amount between them. It was blowing hard from left to right so the flight and my swing made a true comparison quite hard and would be better doing that on the course but first impressions for me would be stuff the swing weight and cut 1" off your driver.

DISCLAIMER

(JF 13.9 can not be held responsible for any one stuffing up there driver and it's your own fault if you do it, but give it ago anyway.)

pasty wrote (see)

Ossie (6.7) wrote (see)

Bob Frost... Do you really believe that you can alter the CoG of a golf club by adding weight to a certain part of the club head?

Well that's what the moveable weights do.

Taz, Bob did say it would change, but I think in one of your posts you mixed up CoG with COR (page 1).

Not with COR - my biggest concern was recommending adding lead weight to a modern driver clubhead.

On April 11 2006, the USGA announced that the maximum allowed MOI has been revised to 5,900 g-cm2 (32.259 oz-in2) with a tolerance of /- 100 g-cm2 . The limit is on moment of inertia around the vertical axis through the club head center of gravity.

A lot of modern drivers push this limit in the clubhead - some being bang on the rules. Any additional weight added to the rear of the sole would push the clubhead MOI over the legal limit, making the clubhead illegal.

A club builder should know this

JimP

All shafts were the projectX 5.5  62 gram shaft