New 2017 EGU instructions, for non qualifiers ... annual review

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New 2017 EGU instructions, for non qualifiers ... annual review

http://www.englandgolf.org/shared/get-file.ashx?id=26757&itemtype=document

 

New instructions from EGU from 2017 regarding non qualifying scores from away clubs, that can be used for annual review. Basically Away opens and other organised events should have their results sent back to participants home clubs to be used for evidence in annual review. Whilst this is not necessarily new for singles events they are talking about doubles and team events too. Also adding in home events, like organised roll ups that are being run as nonqualifiiers. 

Have a read, as it's quite interesting to see if they are trying to target those that are cleaning up in opens, or that have a great record in events that are not qualifiers. It could add some admin for handicap team but if administered well it should also provide evidence to reduce the bandit tags that some people get. 

It should be noted that it's for annual review purposes NOT cuts during the year! Not sure how many roll ups are gonna be bothered, as many aren't run as qualifiers as they are either not off measured course, or they allow gimme etc.

Comments, good or bad?

I'm curious to see how they

I'm curious to see how they propose to handle 4BBB and AM/AM events

Moving towards the WWHS of course

 

That is not part of the proposal

"Our roll up has had to intoduce six inch gimmes purely on the threat that all our rounds  could become qualifiers" 

They will not be qualifiers

Gimmes

I play in several roll ups and every single one of them has a 'gimme distance'. I assume therefore that none of these would qualify as they are not played under full R&A rules and would not meet Competiton Play Conditions.

Some of the Roll ups also operate their own handicaps within the group and players are therefore playing off a handicap which not an 'official' handicap so I assume that thould also not qualify.

I applaud the sentiment as we have a number of players who regulalry win the kitty but 'never do it' in a comp.

 

 

I don't know any more that the notice tells us

but the system will not be interested in the handicap used, simply the gross score(s).

Good example ?

Our Seniors society run a singles stableford comp every week. There is a draw from those who turn up and the field plays in threes or fours depending on numbers. They play to R&A rules with everything holed out but with the exception that those playing in fours always play a 4bbb alongside the stableford. SSS for the course equates to 38 points but the comps are often won with 40+ points with no adjustment in handicap. 

Presumably these comps are an obvious candidate for being changed into a proper qualifiers but there would be tremendous resistance from the seniors. There are a number of them who are just never competitive, even off maximum handicaps, and I think they value the match play aspect of their 4bbb. 

If there is any pressure on them to change, where will it come from ? The Club's H'cp Secretary won't want any more work.

No different to today

Congu already recommend that such a competition should be a qualifier. They haven't changed their position on the matter.

4BBB

I can't see how that can be a qualifier. The partners will be givuing and taking advice.

Which CONGU clause are you using?

4bbb is the side game

they are playing the 4bbb matchplay as a side bet between the four players. Everyone knows that's against the rules, 

 

if if they are playing the singles Stableford correctly then there is no reason why it shouldn't be a qualifier

You said -

"Congu already recommend that such a competition should be a qualifier". 

Re: ".... with the exception that those playing in fours always play a 4bbb alongside the stableford." 

 

Clearly the 4BBB is not part

Clearly the 4BBB is not part of the competition that has been planned, the organisers will not have planned anything to do with the 4BBB, that is something that many clubs up and down the country contend with.

 

nobody has said that the 4BBB should be a qualifier. I'm sure someone of your knowledge would have realised that already.

So you would be happy

if those playing matchplay 4BBB at the same time as a qualifier have their scores accepted for handicap adjustment and CSS calculation even though partners are giving and seeking advice?

I thought qualifying scores only counted if the RoG were followed. My mistake.

Post #3 seems to suggest it wasn't a secret.

Clarification

In my example the Seniors run the stableford as a non-qualifier which therefore allows the opportunity for those in fours to play a side-game of 4bbb. There is no wish to change this from the Seniors Section.

i was thinking though, if there is a move to take non-qualifiers into account for h'cp purposes in some  way, then it would make sense for the Seniors to recognise this and simply abandon the 4bbb and simply play the stableford as a qualifier. They have about 30 players each week who are marking cards that are not touching the h'cp system.

My question was, where is the pressure coming from to make a change ? Turkeys won't vote for Christmas. 

I'm not sure you can call it pressure

CONGU is simply trying to provide handicap committees with more 'non-comp' information (in the note just published).

I can see however, that ultimately a WWHS might wish to 'merge' theconcepts of 'all rounds' and 'comp only' rounds. But my understanding it is likely to be a 'loose' system rather than prescribed.

Revised Notice

Recording of Non-Qualifying Scores - Amended Wording

From 1st January 2017 England Golf require players to return all scores in competitive golf in Non-Qualifying Competitions away from the players home clubs, to assist handicap committees with handicap reviews. (CONGU UHS - Clause 4.5b/8.12).

England Golf has made this decision in order to promote the integrity of the system, and maintain player confidence in handicapping.

Please note these scores must not directly affect a player’s handicap, but should be used as ‘supporting evidence’ of performance when it comes to a handicap review.

Individual scores or Team results must be returned in all Singles, Am-Am and 4BBB with the exception of Texas Scrambles, Foursomes and Greensome competitions, or casual social rounds.

In addition to this, clubs should also be aware of regular roll-ups that take place at their club, and the performance of players in the various formats of those roll ups, without the need to formally record individual scores.

To assist with the return of scores, we advise that clubs outline a process to allow players to record these scores.

It is recommended that this is done directly to the Handicap Committee, and that the Committee keep a copy of all information for the current year and one previous year. The information does not have to be recorded on the handicap software, but should be stored in a format that can be used for any handicap review.

Information to be recorded:
 Date of Competition
 Format of Competition (inc Handicap Allowance)
 Venue/Course
 Tees used
 SSS of Course
 Names of playing partners (if a team/pairs event)
 Score returned

Failure to return these scores by the player could result in loss or suspension of handicap under clause 24.1.

To minimise the work load of the club committee, we have produced a template form that clubs may use to allow players to record non-qualifying scores (Non-Qualifying Scores Return Form).

Guidance to Clubs running Open Competitions.

We also request that clubs running open competitions return the scores of the top 5 places to the player’s or team’s home club. To assist with this, we have designed a pro forma that a club can complete and return. This could be done by post or email (Non-Qualifying Scores Open Return Form).

if they reckon I am going to make returns of that sort of data

The seem to manage elsewhere in the world. eg Wales, Ireland, North America, Australia

 

How many qualifiers do you play in each year?

How many qualifiers do you play in each year?

They 'manage' this system in

They 'manage' this system in the US but most players include gimmees, mulligans and little adherence to the rules in their submitted cards and that the system allows incomplete rounds and  'assumed pars' etc. To say nothing of the unlimited possibilities and actuality of manipulating handicaps to be too high or too low This means that the system is basically unworkable in any sort of fashion that we would understand. If this were introduced here it would be the end of handicap golf as we know it. You could still probably use handicaps amongst friends where you know how 'right' their handicaps were but meaningful handicap tournaments within a club or between clubs would be a thing of the past.

Wales and Ireland ...

.... have been doing it for a year.

 

If they can cope perhaps we can. Or is not worth chasing the am/am bandits?

What has clause 19 got to do with non-qualifying formats?

?

Life moves on.

But am/am bandits have to be dealt with

Mindthepond is showing as

Mindthepond is showing as posting on 17 Jan but I can't see any post.

Where has it gone to?

Ah, I now see what has

Ah, I now see what has happened. And that is why I didn't answer - I didn't see it.

However, it was a bit cheeky/sneaky. I was checking to see if you fitted the rogue profile. ie 20+ opens but only 3 qualifiers. ;-)

Pleased to see you don't.

 

I'll just go and have a look

I'll just go and have a look at your CDH record but I'm sure you've got nothing to worry about.