There must be some teachers out there who are members of the forum who will have comments about the following and I know there will be forum members who would like to have their say.

I have observed in schools for the last couple of days and frankly I was shocked at the behaviour that went on and in several cases ignored by the teachers in many classes. And this was a 'good' school.

Careful DEC the Liberal elite will start accusing you of reading the Daily Mail and seeing bad in everything. Obviously it must be OK because the exam results are improving year on year. Society is fine there is nothing to worry about I,ve been down this route already.. 

SPARE THE ROD AND SPOIL THE CHILD.. Our parents knew a thing or two.. Teachers have no sanction to improve conduct, touch a child and its violence they believe that a smack is an affront to civilisation well, as you sow so shall you reap.. Bury your head in the sand DEC it aint happening we are being told so.. 

It is happening, MTP - I saw it for myself today! No need to read any newspapers.

And I also looked though a GCSE maths paper today - no wonder the grades are going up when the exam papers are so easy. My 11 year old could do some of the questions.

The same Gaussian distribution of intelligence must exist today as it did 50 years ago. Kids are not getting smarter - far from it.

I know exactly what you mean, DEC. My daughter's school had become less about teaching and more about crowd control. The publication of their OFSTED report (they were put on Notice To Improve) coincided nicely with being offered a place at another school, where she started last week.

Her new school has a much better pupil-to-teacher ratio, smart traditional uniforms, no tolerance of behaviour which disturbs the other pupils. The eight grand a year it'll cost us - that the unacceptable nature of the state-provided option has cost us - has put my retirement plans back a couple of years (and scuppered my plans for full membership of my club next year), but it's worth it.

Samiguel - unfortunately that day's observing probably does show the picture in the majority of classes but that's not to say it's the teachers fault.  I think there are a lot of things happening outside the schools, in society, that impact the kids and hence the educational system.  Such things as high divorce rates, many more single parent families, removal or corporal punishment, both parents working to survive etc. but what I don't see if the educational system changing to cope with those things.  The lack of respect by kids today for their elders (not necessarily betters) is shocking.  Every human being deserves to be shown respect and civility but many of these kids can't spell those words nor do they understand the meaning of them.

I, for one, would vote for a political party that allows far more power to be given to todays' teacher to control a class but suspetc none of them have the balls to do it.

The day the decision to remove the cane was made was a very sad day.

I have a pet theory. 

Most kids today have a distorted sense of entitlement and I expect it's partly the fault of the parents.  I assume most of the parents of these kids are baby-boomers who grew up during a time when a lot of us were rebelling against authority.  We were making a statement that we weren't going to adhere to the rules of the establishment, "the man".  And, despite all that, most of us turned out just fine.  However now, a lot of parents are passing that attitude on to their kids, but without tempering it with any discipline at home.

Just my .02 worth.

I don't blame the teachers tbh. They can only work in the environment provided for them and society has demanded an end to corporal punishment.

Sadly alot of the kids who behave poorly are considered to be lost causes by the teachers, so they get "tolerated"/ignored, and who can blame the teachers. I can't.

A colleague of mine decided to leave our line of work and become a teacher. So off he goes to his old secondary school to do some observation and help him get a feel of what the job entailed. On his second day observing a 15 year old girl kept on staring at him, when he looked over she had edged up her skirt showing him "the full view", no knickers, nada, and smiled.

HE shat himself, and after the lesson had finished he reported the incident to the headmaster. He was appalled that the headmaster just said "oh her again". He was told that this kind of thing was not uncommon with certain girls and that he would make a record of the incident in case any allegations where made.

Society is the problem, not teachers or our education system, and until society takes responsibility for the children it creates the teachers and are just doing the best they can.

Samiguel -

I observed 10 classes in that time (not just one class as you have suggested) and as my posts above report, some were good (the A level classes of course) but some were bad - very bad. Please don't get defensive. What I saw was a very stressful job and if government does not buck up its ideas we will find it harder and harder to recruit good teachers. That said, I do think it is up to the senior management of the schools to set the policies on behaviour that should be enforced.

Of the teachers I spoke to several commented on the dumbing down of the courses and pointed to the fact that it is all about passing exams (not necessarily with any understanding.) This is the political aspect you mention perhaps.

I also agree with most (if not all) of what Ken Mavor has posted.

OMG Pen! That is really shocking!

Samiguel, I'm wasn't talking about caning the already abused children now, but more about how much the discipline in schools has declined since the removal of the said cane.

And, whilst you mention it, the drunken parents you talk of needed a reet ferkin kick up their backsides when they were younger too!

You see where I'm going with this?

I am fortunate enough to live in an area with very good schools. When trying to decide what primary to send my son to I visited a couple of headmasters/headmistress's.

The first headmaster told me how the school didn't focus on education alone, they where extremely interested in the emotional development of the child and that they didn't prepare him for the 11+ . I told him that my son already had 2 parents who could do a much better job parenting than he could, so maybe he should stick to educating.

The second head(mistress) made it perfectly clear what was expected of us parents whilst she educated my son, she expected his homework to be done, for us to check it, for us to read with him every night, and if he fell behind for us to do extra work at home with him each night, she explained that they have a strict dress code and very strict behaviour codes, she also explained that the school did fund raising every year and if we could afford to donate then please do, but if you cannot then please donate your time to help organise these functions. Not surprisingly 85% of the kids from this school go on to the local Grammar.

Needless to say we went with the no nonsense school.

My point being that some schools seem more interested in educating than others and that comes down to the management of that school and not necessarily the teachers who work there.

I'm married to a high school teacher, and so get a daily update from life on the coal face. I can therefore confirm that Samiguel is 100% correct in everything he says.

Without being biased, my wife is one of the good teachers out there, and can control a class no problem without resort to physical persuasion. It also helps that her school, whose catchment includes some of the worst areas of the city, has improved out of sight in the last few years due to the policies introduced by a new Head Teacher. e.g. zero tolerance on not wearing uniform. I believe the school now has a record number of kids attaining Highers and applying for uni.

My dad for one still boasts about getting the belt at school in the 1950's- he was a bit of a bad lad, and he and his mates regarded 6 of the best as a badge of honour.  The soft / weak teachers also got taken advantage of, no different to today.

At the risk of being simplistic, here's a thought for you....

Cane abolished over 30yrs ago (which I don't agree with - I distinctly remember caning at my (Grammar) school, where I was a pupil from the early-mid eighties).But taken as correct, that means nobody under the age of, say 37, has ever been subject to corporal punishment. And who make up the vast majority of the parents of the schoolkids who DEC and others have seen misbehaving?

I do not believe that corporal punishment itself is a panacea - in my experience, however, it worked (through the threat of it's use), in 93 of the 95 kids in my year. Admittedly, you could have beaten the other 2 almost to death without any good coming from it whatsoever, but that was very different to the "caning doesn't work" line I've heard trotted out.

A line has got to be drawn in the societal sand soon - we already have a significant number of 20-40 yr old who think that they can do exactly as they like, have no respect for themselves or others, and are raising their brats in exactly the same way. A number of them may now be lost to decent society for good. But with this continual pussy-footing around peoples' rights to do what the f### they like, and screw everyone else, society is going to be a pretty bleak place in the future.

In another thread, (I believe it was Taz's one about whether England was any good any more, or not), someone put to Taz that, if it was so bad, why not leave? IMO, that's the nub of so many of society's ill nowadays - the decent having to bend over backwards, to accomodate those who care for no-one but themselves.

And, breathe......

"societal sand"

Wow.

Bridgey - you've been reading too many of Freud's books mate. 

Clement as opposed to Sigmund.

agree totally

when i was a kid there were three groups of people who you were "afraid" of getting on the wrong side

Teachers, The Local Bobby and your Parents.

Each of these groups of people had the "right" to punish you as they saw fit....be that a clout round the ear, slap across the back of the arse from your father, the cane (or belt in Scotland...a far more fearful weapon!!) or the local copper frogmarching you under restraint back into the arms of your parents.

you knew that when youe did something wrong....you were in trouble.....and eventually you learned that trouble was not a nice place to be in....so you modified your behavious accordingly and became reasonably well behaved citizens as you grew up.

Since all this "Social Charter" and PC nonsense has grown we have seen a slow, continual erosion of the "rights" of the three groups of people aforementioned to administer some sort of physical punishment to the children under their care/supervision. It is no coincidence that, as children have grown to realise that they will not be punished for misdemeanours, their beaviour has gradually worsened over the last twenty years.

Now I realise that there are certain people within the three groups mentioned that have, and would, abuse any laws that allowed them to physically punish children and their are groups of vulnerable children (and adults) that do need some protection....but I do think that things as they stand today have gone too far.

Parents, Teachers, the Police and courts are now virtually toothless in their powers to bring up kids and groom them for adulthood.

It starts with the parents...if a good discipline isnt establised in the early years (pre 6 or 7) then when these kids get into school the teachers are allready facing an uphill battle and by the time the kids leave school they see that the sentences handed out by courts are so meaningless that they are effectively unpunished....and those that do get a punishment wear it like a badge of honour.

Society is not broken....but it soon will be if this trend is allowed to continue.

Pengwyn 9.9 \/ wrote (see)

My point being that some schools seem more interested in educating than others and that comes down to the management of that school and not necessarily the teachers who work there.

Sorry, Peng, missed this post first time round as I was typing mine!

Yes, I agree - that's what my wife has witnessed at her school, a new regime (in line with the "no nonsense" approach you found at the second school) has transformed the school in the space of a few years.

Ossie I agree 100%.

For me the main deterent wasn't the groups of authority (Teachers, local plod, etc.), although I never made cause for concern with them, it was my own folks if - woe-betide-me - I dared bring any of the above to the front door!

 corrected!

I think it does indeed need a overhaul, I think that the SAT's/GCSE/A level stages of learning are nowhere near as good as they could be. In my opinion all GCSE's have done is taken me into A levels, nothing more. I think they need to be made more valuable in some way, whether making them harder to attain or another way. I also think the system needs to be made stricter. Sure the schools have some say, but the safety first attitude today means anything more than a telling off is abuse. Kids mock this and find it no trouble to do what they like. I am at a sixth form, but friends who go to colleges have no difference in this.

All very interesting posts. It is particularly intriguing to read the opinions of a student. Good luck with your endeavours Shawsey! Do you have uniform in sixth form and if not do you think it would be a good idea?

I bet the girl who likes to 'flash her gash' can't wait for her 6th form uniform, if she makes the grades to stay on.

My guess is it'll be a nurses one!

Chris Curry and Ossie.

100% agreement from me as well.  I have tried to bring up my three kids in exactly that way.  If they think the school, or police are scary just wait 'til they get home.  I have only lost my temper twice in 17 years and three kids and believe me they ALL remember it.  They all know the consquences if they step out of line, especially outside of the home.  If they think the teachers or the police are powerful all three know that when they come home their mum and dad will be worse.  BUT they also know that we will support them , love them, do anything for them regardless of the situation.  If they are to blame for some sort of wrongdoing then there will be consequences but they will learn and move on and we will ALWAYS help them out no matter what the problem is.

I also think many kids today don't get the other side of the coin as well.  IE Their parents probably couldn't really careless about them, especially once they've left home.  Heard a true story of a kid at the local school who put hash in the cakes in domestic science and the school called his mum and dad (both at work) and were told what had happened.  Their reply was "I'm at work and too busy, can't the school deal with it?"

Also, interested to hear that we are, in some cases, onto a second generation of people who have never worked, never been held responsible for their actions and never passed any exams at school.  How do we expect those kids to change when they know nowt else.

Must go and lie down in a dark room now......