Join the 'England Experience'
How much would you pay to improve?
Posted: 24 December 2008
by Bob Warters
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The England team
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The English Golf Union (EGU) is offering a unique opportunity for golfers to experience its renowned coaching programme previously only available to its top top amateur players.
The England Experience - £799 for three days at the National Golf Centre at Woodhall Spa - is described as 'a once in a lifetime opportunity for 12 golfers to spend time with the England coaches and play Britain’s top inland course.'
As well as food and accommodation, included in the deal are short game and swing technique, psychology and conditioning and a behind the scenes look at what goes into training a top amateur and eventually turning them in to a top Tour pro like Oliver Fisher, Ross McGowan, Chris Woods and Ross Fisher.
The coaching team comprises,
Gary Smith, David Ridley,
Dr. Brian Hemmings and Andy Larmour, all of whom have worked with the country's best youngsters.
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Coach Gary Smith
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Smith says: "This is such a unique opportunity to discover exactly what England's top amateurs experience and have access to the knowledge only usually available to those at the top of their sport. Most players turn pro after following the EGU's England programme. We can't guarantee that but we can guarantee the same guidance personally and individually on how to improve your overall performance."
The course takes place from March 16-18 and will be available on a first come, first served basis. For more information contact Stephen Burnett at EGU on 01526 354500.
Sounds like a great chance for a golfer to take their game to the next level and provides an interesting insight into how much are we prepared to pay to achieve this? If we're really serious about improvement would we pay £800 to find out from this fast-track course, if we've got what it takes? I'm sure there are families prepared to invest in a son or daughter to this extent but is a mature adult too set in their ways to benefit? Tell us your views on the forum.
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Discuss this story
If you add up the costs of everything you do each year trying to improve then it probably makes sense to pay this much and do an intensive course! Trips to the range trying to groove that perfect swing The latest driver to add yards to your drives A new crazily designed putter to avoid those 3 putts Shiney new irons Fancy wedges Anti friction tees to 'add yards to your drive' etc etc etc So is £800 too much? I dont think so If I had the moola id probably do it!
Posted: 24/12/2008 10:54
Bob As far as I am concerned, the expert "coaching" I had from Tom Haliburton at Wentworth and many years later Peter Ballingall at Barnham Broom "making the very best of what I aleady possessed rather than modelling me in a certain way"far outweighs anything I could be taught at EGU HQ with pros probably teaching a "method"!
Posted: 24/12/2008 12:01
I don't think golf is a sport where you can intensively improve. I feel it is a sport where small steps of improvement are longer lasting. Small change - practice - ingrain - it becomes a "good" habit that lasts. OF course having a modicum of talent, starting young and getting good advice from very early on all help you achieve a good standard fast. Would I pay £800 for an intensive course ? NO. But I would take another bunch of lessons to take the next step when I feel my own development has stalled. Dan might begetting a call early next year  !
Posted: 24/12/2008 23:00
Agree with Pengwyn, it takes time to learn new techniques and bed them in, come back learn a bit more, practice, learn a bit more etc. I could easily see people, particularly beginners, suffering from paralysis by analysis after such an intensive course. Even if you took the trouble to write everything down after each segment and take away your video analysis ( assuming they have the time to do this individually ) it still takes time to bed things in. You need a pro with good eyes, who really knows his stuff and most of all, how to apply it. IMO very very few Pros have this 'gift' though. I could see it being more beneficial for putting and short game though.
Posted: 24/12/2008 23:14
Its not just the lessons, your paying for the Hotel, golf course experience, a mini break in fact. Golf wise if i had the money to spare (i havnt), i would invest, just for the whole golfing experince and hopefully i would see some improvement. They do a lot of techncal stuff there covering all aspects of the game (my daughters boy friend is in England squad), which would be really intersting to do. On the other hand, i would not expect many to come away with vastly improved swings, more short game skill yes, but swing changes do take time.
Posted: 25/12/2008 20:29
Oldboy It must say quite a lot about the high quality of golf teachers in the days when I and my county colleagues were being taught that I now play with many of them who have the good, smooth reliable swings I/they were taught then and still have Category One handicaps. In those days we were not overcoached and our gurus did not require video cameras and all the modern gismos probably to be used at Woodhall Spa by coaches by generally young(ish) pros teaching a method. It is very common nowadays for many youngsters to have much of their natural talent coached out of them!
Posted: 25/12/2008 23:42
http://www.englishgolfunion.org/documents/ENGLAND%20EXPERIENCEV2.pdf A link as to what you get for your £799. After reading it through, think my money would stay in my pocket or maybe have a week in spain golfing in stead. When you look at the information the quality is there, but i would not think i would benifit in such a short time. If i had a lottery win, hell yes i would give it ago, but then i might just as well pay Butch Harmon for his time 
Posted: 26/12/2008 00:17
Don't think so. Golf is not a game you can learn to play in a short time. This type of intensive course will no doubt provide many tips to improve a players game, but could anyone remember them all and continue to put them into practice long after they return home? I very much doubt it. As an experience it's probably something not to miss if you can afford it, but a way of greatly improving any-one's game... Think I'll keep my money, find a good pro and work on my game slowly. Brom.
Posted: 26/12/2008 08:25
everyoen learns at a diffrent pae, some peopel can take things in really quickly some dont. now if i was a millionaire i would ofc spend this but as im not i wont, same reason i stop lessons in winter. golf coaching is genreally too expensive (some people are reasonable) but most seem to have said that guy can charge that so i will too. imo £40 an hour is a ridculous price to pay someone to teach you how to play a game!
Posted: 26/12/2008 22:39
Josh Sometimes(read often) I really do wonder if you live in THIS world! Teaching golf expertly is not something that ANYONE can do. Many pro golfers, tour and club, know how to swing a club but to know all about the mechanics of a golf swing and how to improve a pupil's performance without spoiling the good things in their swings and their thinking and COMMUNICATE successfully with a pupil takes much learning and lots of talent. Such men and women teaching pros ply their trade as golf teachers-often via academies- in much the same way as accountants, solicitors, surgeons, medical consultants, barristers etc. Surely,Josh, you must know enough about the way capitalism works to know that these professions charge more in a day than very many people earn in a week. A partner in an international law firm or accountancy practice in the UK regularly receives(NOT EARNS)well over £500,000 in salary alone quite apart from an annual bonus equal to his salary.Not many senior partners work more than 35-40 hours per week - just you try to work THAT out on an hourly rate!! And as for top footballers-the mind boggles! I would EXPECT to pay £40 for an hour-and probably more- to a good/top teaching pro who has often had to pay a very large amount of money for fitting out a comfortable, centrally heated, teaching academy, generally having a very expensive video camera and Trackmaster System so that he can give you excellent evidence of your shots and make small necessary adjustments so that you may improve. I find your attitude to the subject of learning to play this most difficult of games not only interesting but esxtremely disquieting. It leads me to the thought that you must jib at paying virtually anything for almost anything! 
Posted: 26/12/2008 23:40
How much does it cost for a plumber? Lessons can be from £10 to £50 depends what you want. I would love the EGU offer, but have to spend my money on other more important things. Is it good value for those that have the cash? Only time will tell, see what the take up is like, and the results from those that do.
Posted: 27/12/2008 10:44
oldschool I doubt very much that £10 spent with a good teaching professional would get you more than an aside during a Pro-Am that "you couldn't hit your arse with a banjo!"
Posted: 27/12/2008 13:51
oldschool I doubt very much that £10 spent with a good teaching professional would get you more than an aside during a Pro-Am that "you couldn't hit your arse with a banjo!"
Yes true
But for those just requiring the basics when first starting, a course of lessons at a tenner a go would be good value. My last one was £50, from Andrew Nicholson, good but value? not sure? Could all ways post your swing on here to get ripped apart for free
Posted: 27/12/2008 19:20
Could all ways post your swing on here to get ripped apart for free
Sadly for Boa, Fishing Magic is no longer with us 
Posted: 27/12/2008 19:42
Alan At least you could always count on me as "the life and SOLE of the party"!
Posted: 27/12/2008 20:28
i do live in the real world boa so i know that most people with normal jobs and are working class can not afford to pay £40 an hour for their hobby, and most dont have friends that earn over 500k a year. i appreciate that good pros have extensive knowledge and deserve to earn a living, though considering the current climate with shops offering massive discounts on everything, pros will be feeling the pinch, and might have to cut there rates. maybe you should look at yourself compared to others and wonder if you live in the real world, from what youve said you had a privaged upbringing and where taught this fine game by some amazing coaches i wish i could have those same oppertunitys. when i book a lesson i have to think what will i have to do without that week. im not trying to start a fight or be mean to you, as i always read your post and respect your comments. just try to look at it from others point of view where the average wage in the uk is less than 15k a year You are right about one thing though im a tight git and hate paying for anything
Posted: 28/12/2008 03:40
Josh I was only having a dig at you as I felt that in the case of a really good teacher of a game we all love-and most want to improve at-you were being particularly mean and out of touch! Very unfortunately in this sad country now, as it has been for many years, the rich continue to get richer and the poor poorer. I'll freely admit to have had a privileged childhood as far as material things were concerned but I'm pretty darned sure that you MUST have had a far better and more loving relationship than my brother,sister and me ever had! I can assure you that for the last 17 years of my life,at a time when all the hard work and dedication I spent building up two businesses and looking after my employees generously and wel, I have struggled to make ends meet AND provide for a young family. However, even in my reduced circumstances I reckon that £40(and more for a TOP teacher) is excellent value. I would be very sad if I found ANY good teacher cutting rates. One last thing. I dont know where you got your information on average wages but I think that you will find that it is quite considerably higher than you quoted! I do hope that you will finish up as the Scrooge we saw at the END of Charles Dickens's book "A Christmas Carol" rather than the one we endured up to that point!
Posted: 28/12/2008 11:15
good post mate, actually you are correct about the avearge wages is more like 23k (i dont get anywhere near that) its a good debate i will agree that £40 is reasonable for a GOOD teacher, i guess i can only call from my own experinces with teaching pros, and ive had lessons from 4 and 3 where useless. So there is the question for you. you have had many great teachers, but have you ever had a teacher you thought was totaly rubbish and didnt have a clue?
Posted: 28/12/2008 12:16
Josh As I have pointed out before I have only had TWO teachers in 58 years of playing golf. I did try two others who tried-totally unsuccessfully thank God!- to give me their "method"and wasted £25 of my time and hard-earned cash. PM me and I will do my very best from my various sources to find by personal recommendation a teacher in your area who will "make the very best of what you have already" rather than trying to land you with a method which almost certainly would not suit you till the moon turned to blue cheese! Sincere regards Boa
Posted: 28/12/2008 15:00
PM me and I will do my very best from my various sources to find by personal recommendation a teacher in your area who will "make the very best of what you have already" rather than trying to land you with a method which almost certainly would not suit you till the moon turned to blue cheese! Sincere regards Boa
Can you do the same for me.
Live in Redcar, North east. Cheers.
Posted: 28/12/2008 18:08
oldschool I shall use my best endeavours on your behalf
Posted: 28/12/2008 18:20
I've had lessons from 4 pro's - two I liked, two I didn't (and didn't go back). Best pro for me was Keith Pickard - kept it nice and simple, with sensible steps, and (I feel) worked with what I've got rather than applying textbook changes. Unfortunately, Keith is no longer at my local driving range. However, a Google search showed this... http://www.golfmagic.com/news/article/mps/uan/5315 Seems he's landed a top job with deVere - I'd guess he's no longer offering lessons!
Posted: 29/12/2008 11:54
Kevin Craggs does probably charge that amount Boa.
He's listed as one of Golf Monthly's Top 25 coaches (inc. Gary Aliss & "Choppers" himself - Scott Cranfield).
I follow Craggs' articles closely to see what silly trousers he's wearing that month (he's a tall bloke so he must've paid real money to get Ronnie Corbett's trousers let down that much).
Ok that's a tad facesceous but on a serious note, I'd hope to Christ he didn't try to teach me *his* swing!
I do read instructional articles in mags but I seldom allow them to influence me unless - I feel - that it parallels what I'm trying to do. I scrutinise the imagery & words (which often contradict one another - do as I say, and all that).
Two things I've noticed about Craggsy's swing & dislike are 1) his ridiculously narrow stance (especially with a driver) for such a tall bloke, 2) his lovely bent left elbow at the top of his swing.
Now anyone who's been playing since nappies can make the best of a bad job (so long as it repeats: Furyk, Trevino, et. al., prove this) but in the words of Johnny Miller it resembles something that would make Mr. Hogan puke! Especially if you're a Hoganite (plus related teachings), so one planers ought to be wary.
Now I'm not saying he isn't a good instructor, all I'm saying is that given the - albeit circumstantial - evidence I wouldn't be knocking down Mr Cragg's door for instruction.
One thing I will say about Scott Cranfield, like him or loathe him, his swing is Bob-on. I had a freebie 1/2 hour session at what used to be one of his academies in MK. I was having lessons at the time off one of his instructors and I got a lesson off him but he was also passing on instructional knowledge to his instructors.
At £300 quid per "private session" I'd expect the bugger's swing to be Bob-on!
Posted: 29/12/2008 23:48
I think this EGU scheme, as well as any other intensive training is a waste of time and money. The real good players, England squad types, can prolly glean something from it, and anyone else could have a good enjoyable time there, but would their golf improve? Most likely, not at all. Its too much info, and a lot of it will be technical. You really gonna remember all the nuances and aspects of the morning session while you are half way through the afternoon session? No, let alone a week later. If you are interested in being trained or caoched to improve your golf, finding one of those rare beasts, a pro that can teach, having a fortnightly hour with him, and once a month an on course playing lesson with him, will, if you practise what he teaches you, improve your golf game far more. £800 should get 20 or so hours tuition. 8 hours on-course, 6 hours swing, and 6 hours short game should take your game forwards leaps and bounds if you work at it between lessons. Bob - I dont know if you are reading this thread but it would make a great feature for the site - if GM sponsored two similar skilled golfers, one on the EGU course, one on the pro lesson route, and after 6 months see which one has improved most.
Posted: 01/01/2009 19:12
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