Tiger Woods backs ban on grooves delay
...as Tour commissioner rules new laws start next year
Posted: 10 July 2009
by Golfmagic correspondent
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Rough justice:Tiger Woods supports not delaying the introduction of new rules on grooves
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World No.1 Tiger Woods supports the action by PGA tour commissioner Tim Finchem not to postpone new rules on grooves due to be introduced for major Tour professionals around the world on January 1, 2010.
As well as some players, Titleist were among those who wanted the introduction delayed for a year while Ping was steadfastly again a rule which bans the use of wider grooves which make it easier to spin the ball from rough lies.
"We've known for over a couple years now what this decision was going to be, when it was going to come down, and we've had plenty of time to make our adjustments," says Woods, preparing for next week's Open championship at Turnberry
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Ian Poulter tries to escape from deep rough
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"All the companies have been testing and getting ready for this, and the guys will make the changes. It'll be interesting seeing guys catching fliers and not being able to spin the ball back out of the rough."
The new ruling by the game's governing bodies - the R&AQ and USGA - dictates that grooves must be reduced in volume and have a reduced edge sharpness. The current U-grooves, allow top players to impart too much spin on the ball, according to the law-makers, so all irons and wedges for Tour events will be required to have smaller V-type grooves.
The rule is not due to be introduced for elite events - including top amateur tournaments - until 2014 and for club golf until 2024.
The PGA Tour Policy Board was expected to rule on the issue, with three of the four player representatives thought to be in favour of a delay, but when it was deferred to Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem, he ruled that the grooves rule would change as originally scheduled.
"It's actually not that complicated," he explained this week. "Up until 1987, all grooves were V-grooves. Around 1988-90, there was a new groove created called a U-groove, which had more space in it and especially in rough conditions, you can spin it easier.
"The PGA Tour opposed that at that time. There were lawsuits and one thing led to another. They were settled but U-grooves were allowed," he recalled.
"In the intervening years, the correlation between hitting the ball in the fairway and performing well on the PGA Tour went like that. So our position has always been that we wanted to return to re-establishing the importance of hitting the ball in the fairway. It doesn't need to be a V-groove but a groove that doesn't generate that kind of spin out of the rough."
While Titleist and Ping argued that some players more than others will need more time to adjust, other manufacturers also cited the financial impact of getting all their staff using new clubs and widening the gap between Tour players and club players.
"A player's clubhead speed and technique, whether spin or trajectory-biased, and whether mechanical or feel-biased, will determine how much of an adjustment he or she will be required to make," Titleist said.
"The time and resources required to convert players to wedges with proposed new grooves by January 1, 2010 is a serious challenge. Most Tour players have not yet even hit a wedge with the proposed new grooves, let alone started to reassess their game."
However, Woods says the new rule could change the way Tour pros attack par-5s and those short par-4s that can be reached off the tee.
"Players likely won’t be able to control the ball out of the rough with smaller grooves. Missing the fairway could mean a player is obviously going to pay a little more of a price.”
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...as Tour commissioner
Discuss this story
All these changes totally ignore the basic facts and statistics; that golf is largely played by over 40's, many with non-athletic body shapes, and that 80% of these will very seldom score less than 100 or have a handicap less than 20. There are only about 0.1% of golfers who play of 'scratch' and can generate much spin anyway. The vast majority of club golfers strike the ball on an upward swing thereby creating far less spin than a descending blow as perfected by the 'pros'. The same argument goes for golf balls. All the hype about 'spin around the green'. I've yet to see many club golfers who create enough spin the stop the ball 'on a sixpence' nevermind actually get 'backspin' on it. It's time the R&A and the USGA realised who is actually playing the sport and get of their snobby high horses before the game suffers from the MCC and LTA syndromes. As a great cricketer once said, "sports are run by 'old farts" who are more concerned with petty rules than having the game enjoyed by as many people as possible.
Posted: 13/10/2009 22:32
But.... as you say, the grooves don't affect 99% of golfers... so why get hung up on this one? I applaud the governing bodies for taking a (long overdue) stance on the way technology has changed the pro game. They should have taken action years ago, and that's where the "old farts" analogy probably applies.
Posted: 13/10/2009 22:45
Superstar, 99% of golfers will not be affected by this ban, it's only for elite amatuers and the Pro's, we the great unwashed can continue to use them for many years to come.
Posted: 13/10/2009 23:06
All these changes totally ignore the basic facts and statistics; that golf is largely played by over 40's, many with non-athletic body shapes, and that 80% of these will very seldom score less than 100 or have a handicap less than 20. There are only about 0.1% of golfers who play of 'scratch' and can generate much spin anyway. The vast majority of club golfers strike the ball on an upward swing thereby creating far less spin than a descending blow as perfected by the 'pros'. The same argument goes for golf balls. All the hype about 'spin around the green'. I've yet to see many club golfers who create enough spin the stop the ball 'on a sixpence' nevermind actually get 'backspin' on it. It's time the R&A and the USGA realised who is actually playing the sport and get of their snobby high horses before the game suffers from the MCC and LTA syndromes. As a great cricketer once said, "sports are run by 'old farts" who are more concerned with petty rules than having the game enjoyed by as many people as possible.
I realy don't get what your trying to say.
The rule change doesn't effect us for years. Even though our skill level is so low that it won't effect us anyway. So either way it only effects the elite amateurs (but not for years) and Pro's. So do the pro's need to be reigned in ? Absolutely yes ! The game, and many of it's classic courses, are being effected by technology to the detriment of the game. Average players on tour have a hot few days with a putter and win Majors for christ sake, all because they are not punished for being wayward off the tee. The game is not just driving and putting is it ? The pro game has become a smash and slash game and that imo is not what golf is about. It is more than that. I hope this is the first step in the path to taking the game back a fews steps. imo The ball could be reigned in also. They could also lower the number of clubs allowed to be carried in the bag. They should be allowed to use DMDs and on the flip side should be forced to play faster, leading to penalty shots and not fines if they play too slow. Rant over 
Posted: 13/10/2009 23:23
Yes and no to McStumpy and Oldboy. You can continue using the 'U' grooved wedges, but..... The next Vokey's will be with the new 'V' grooves and they don't say if they will continue making the present ones or a new one with U type grooves.
Sorry Damon but I think this is wrong. I read somewhere (cannot remember where though) that Acushnet will be making BOTH types of wedges and they will be labelled differently.
edit check titleist web site for "two types" info.
Posted: 13/10/2009 23:25
Damon I see your off 16 ( I'm off 14) do you think there is enough difference between the U or V grooves ( for us), I don't and there was a a poster on a recent thread that said he prefered a much earlier Cleveland than the latest ones. Have to wait and see if they continue with the U grooves, if there's a market I'm sure they will.
Posted: 13/10/2009 23:26
I play U grooves in ALL my irons and they make a massive difference to my game, as I hit alot from the rough  IMO There should have been a separate set of rules for Tour Pros - bifurcation. Tournament set ups for Tour Pros already take into consideration modern technology. I want to see Pros make birdies. Driving distances have maxed out pretty much and Ams are not hitting it crazy distances, so why did we need this pointless groove ruling for everybody ? Nicklaus, Player, Palmer et al should just leave the game alone and let it evolve naturally, as it did in their day.
Posted: 14/10/2009 00:51
JP totally agree, Tour pros should have different restrictions to the rest of us, golf is not too easy if you have a handicap! seeing them spin the ball out of the rough is just rubbish, THAT SHOULD NEVER happen!!! grrr. v grooves for pros only, the extra bit in U grooves just mean amateurs come up shorter than normal (most ams tend to hit short of the target so the majority of shots are hurt by this) U grooves make f all difference to amateur golf, for the occassional amateur that benefits there are lots that leave longer putts. k
Posted: 14/10/2009 09:44
Just Pured You're comments are what I was getting at. Seeing as pro equipment is modified already for each individual, the grooves could be modified at that stage probably. The rest of us need the help that the U grooves might be giving us without us being aware or deliberately trying to create spin. Again looking at statistics, they show that ball and club technology improvements have not really reduced the average handicap of players over the last 25 years, nor increased the driving distances either. This indicates that the game had already evolved to a logical plateau and any perceived improvements in club, ball, or course changes have not really resulted in drastic improvements in ability. The game is already hard enough for most people. The biggest difference between ams and pros is consistancy of ball strike and not what ball or club we're using. Compare the clubs in the middle of last century to todays crop of beauties, yet people were posting similar scores as todays players. Most perceived benefits are pure marketing hype, which certainly works, with myself included, even though I know better.
Posted: 14/10/2009 10:42
I play square groove clubs and the difference is very visable to see not just in the amount of spin I get but also in the amount of the ball cover that gets left in the grooves. I have seen many threads on here about people complaining that balls do not last therefore I assume that these high spin wedges would not be used by a great many players who would not be willing to put up witht the extra costs of replacing balls more frequently. Secondly I see that the vast majority of amateurs do not use a high spin ball in the first place, preferring things like Srixon AD333 so I doubt if this sort of ruling will even bother them. I would also agree with the view that very the majority of amateurs play ball to land and run rather than land and stop or spin back, judging from what I watch with people I play amongst PS The these clubs are only usable by amateurs if they buy them before the end of 2009.
Posted: 14/10/2009 11:05
Personally, I like to have the maximum amount of spin available with short irons, say from 7i down. It gives me versatility to hit it high with more spin, to stop it on hard narrow greens as we have or if im short sided and need to stop it fast. I have learned how to take spin off if needed and its not hard to do with practice. I play for fun not to make £Ms and I really enjoy seeing a well struck wedge shot on target, with good disance control, sit down beside the flag like an old dog in front of the fire, as Torrance would say  I tried an old v groove Titleist Vokey LW from very light rough a few weeks ago, just a 3/4 swing and it must have run out 15yds on, then off the green where a Vega LW would stop within 2 yds with a punch or sucked back 20ft with spin if you hit down harder. I practise my short game a fair bit as my long game is so bad. I really resent being forced to spend a fortune buying a stock of premium U groove wedges to last me into the forseeable future, just to keep my short game sharp or go back to semi duffing shots and watching my scores go up. It will surely have a small effect on making the game even slower too, as peeps will be hitting more recovery shots from off the green. Sure this ruling wont make any noticable difference to 95% of golfers playing Surlyn balls, so why the need to change for the AM game ? It would have been alot simpler to make it an equipment condition for Tour Pros, who's clubs are all custom made anyway and usually different to off the rack models. Its a joke to suggest that Ams would care that Pros play different rules to them, the already do anyway in some cases, as a condition of competition.
Posted: 14/10/2009 20:30
I really resent being forced to spend a fortune buying a stock of premium U groove wedges to last me into the forseeable future, just to keep my short game sharp or go back to semi duffing shots and watching my scores go up. It will surely have a small effect on making the game even slower too, as peeps will be hitting more recovery shots from off the green. From what I understand, for amateur players the changes don't come into effect until January 2014. As you say, it won't affect 95% of amateurs, so using V grooves will hardly make a distance to the vast majority of the golf-playing population. Just because you've shelled out for some posh Japanese wedges doesn't mean that the R&A and USGA should go back on rules which they announced a couple of years ago!
Posted: 14/10/2009 20:48
Manufacturers can manufacture until the end of 2009 and sell throughout 2010. Amateur golfers can still play these wedges/grooves until 2024. Who keeps wedges for that long? Should be well worn by then and any fresh grooves are going to play better.
Posted: 14/10/2009 20:54
Spare a thought (if you can be arsed) for what the R&A define as "low level professionals", i.e. the likes of yours truly. For the day-in day-out regional events and pro-ams I can carry on using the current irons, but if I want to enter Open Qualifying, I'd have to have a new, conforming set of irons and wedges... So, do I not bother trying to qualify for the world's best golf tournament, or do I shell out on a new set of clubs just for possibly 18 holes?! 
Posted: 14/10/2009 21:19
How much differrence will it make? I'd have thought getting used to the new spec and sticking with it would be better long term. As a low level amateur, I can't spin the ball with U grooves so I've no chance with V's.
Posted: 14/10/2009 21:22
How much differrence will it make?
Probably about £300 plus!
Posted: 14/10/2009 21:25
Have you had chance to try a CoC wedge? Only £300 for a new set, is that with staff discount?
Posted: 14/10/2009 21:28
Just Pured You're comments are what I was getting at. Seeing as pro equipment is modified already for each individual, the grooves could be modified at that stage probably. The rest of us need the help that the U grooves might be giving us without us being aware or deliberately trying to create spin. Again looking at statistics, they show that ball and club technology improvements have not really reduced the average handicap of players over the last 25 years, nor increased the driving distances either. This indicates that the game had already evolved to a logical plateau and any perceived improvements in club, ball, or course changes have not really resulted in drastic improvements in ability. The game is already hard enough for most people. The biggest difference between ams and pros is consistancy of ball strike and not what ball or club we're using. Compare the clubs in the middle of last century to todays crop of beauties, yet people were posting similar scores as todays players. Most perceived benefits are pure marketing hype, which certainly works, with myself included, even though I know better.
Still not sure I follow your reasoning. You say that U or V grooves make no difference to the amateur - so why get "excited" about a rule change that will make no difference to the amateur?
It will make a huge difference to the top level pro. I appreciate Pasty's predicament, but golf at the top level should be risk & reward. At the moment, it's too heavily tilted towards reward.
Posted: 14/10/2009 21:38
I borrowed a couple of vokeys from the pro shop recently and saw no spin whatsoever from them. Lord only knows how people on here say they are getting spin from them.
By hitting the ball well 
Posted: 14/10/2009 21:50
Just Pured You're comments are what I was getting at. Seeing as pro equipment is modified already for each individual, the grooves could be modified at that stage probably. The rest of us need the help that the U grooves might be giving us without us being aware or deliberately trying to create spin. Again looking at statistics, they show that ball and club technology improvements have not really reduced the average handicap of players over the last 25 years, nor increased the driving distances either. This indicates that the game had already evolved to a logical plateau and any perceived improvements in club, ball, or course changes have not really resulted in drastic improvements in ability. The game is already hard enough for most people. The biggest difference between ams and pros is consistancy of ball strike and not what ball or club we're using. Compare the clubs in the middle of last century to todays crop of beauties, yet people were posting similar scores as todays players. Most perceived benefits are pure marketing hype, which certainly works, with myself included, even though I know better.
Still not sure I follow your reasoning. You say that U or V grooves make no difference to the amateur - so why get "excited" about a rule change that will make no difference to the amateur?
It will make a huge difference to the top level pro. I appreciate Pasty's predicament, but golf at the top level should be risk & reward. At the moment, it's too heavily tilted towards reward.
McS the rule changes prolly make no discernable difference to the vast majority of Ams but it does to me, as the short game is MY strength. I practice it alot, use good wedges etc and enjoy the benefits U or Tour Box grooves give.
The golf rule makers didnt need to make it a blanket ruling. I think the whole thing is a vast over reaction to the opinions of legends of the game, who were big hitters in their prime, Palmer & Nicklaus. Viewers complained that The Masters got boring to watch in recent years, when players rarely made birdies, were scrambling for par & the crowds were silent. Pro golf is going to get a bit more boring IMO when we watch Quiros hitting a 3/5 wood off every tee and players start nobbing it over greens, when they catch fliers out of rough. Sure us Ams may well snigger, as they are now more like us but I like to see plenty of birdies, great recoveries, eagles and low scores. Just my 2p 
Posted: 15/10/2009 00:00
McS the rule changes prolly make no discernable difference to the vast majority of Ams but it does to me,
The golf rule makers didnt need to make it a blanket ruling.
1. No it doesn't, the rule won't affect you until about 2020 or later 2. They didn't, it's only for top level pros and elite amateurs next year.
Posted: 15/10/2009 05:52
Yo Pasty, it affects me as OEMs will stop making box U groove wedges from next year, so I have to stock up on them to keep using decent wedges until 2024. I know they will still be allowed to sell old stock till end of 2010. I just dont agree with their logic.
Posted: 15/10/2009 17:03
Spare a thought (if you can be arsed) for what the R&A define as "low level professionals", i.e. the likes of yours truly. For the day-in day-out regional events and pro-ams I can carry on using the current irons, but if I want to enter Open Qualifying, I'd have to have a new, conforming set of irons and wedges... So, do I not bother trying to qualify for the world's best golf tournament, or do I shell out on a new set of clubs just for possibly 18 holes?!
Come on Pasty, You're asking us hacks for sympathy? Behave!
Posted: 15/10/2009 20:54
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