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Deep-faced drivers clash head on

We compare the Ping Si3 340cc driver with the Integra Viktory II with its money-back guarantee.


Posted: 19 September 2003
by Bob Warters


Ping Si3 340cc driver.

Ping Si3 340 v Integra Viktory II Forged Titanium

Price: Ping £399 (graphite shaft), Integra £149 (graphite)

During the last few weeks I’ve been trying to get to grips with two recent additions to the plethora of drivers which seem to be competing for our attention.

In the last 12 years, I’ve tried more drivers than a long-suffering British School of Motoring instructor and have yet to find one with which I have been totally happy.

My golf was initiated in the 1970s, when I bought a set of second hand clubs, which included a steel shafted, persimmon-headed Ben Sayers driver. I carried it in my bag for years, but rarely used it – the big fluffy yellow pom-pom head cover merely identified that I had one.

I’m still none the wiser after comparing Ping’s Si3 340cc and the Viktory II 370cc from Integra – neither of which I could strike with any real consistency.

Unlike a number of the latest ball-thumpers with claimed lower centre of gravity, neither was easy for me to get airborne. Granted, I’m a handsy type of golfer who delivers a low, penetrating flight with my irons most suited to links courses. But shots with these two clubs rarely flew higher than a bungalow chimney pot.

On occasions my ego was massaged with drives that bounded along as if on an airport runway but in the recent dry conditions, against mates who are not usually longer than me, I was still playing my approach shots first.

Let’s look first at the Ping with its thermoplastic hosel which allows club fitters to match a driver or fairway wood to any golfer's swing with different lie angles, helping them correct hooks and slices to achieve the best possible ball flight. Mine was supplied based on info provided, as best I could, over the telephone, so perhaps wasn’t perfect for me.

The sound off the deep forged 340cc face ( a new 380cc version is soon to be released) was almost as quiet and soft as the persimmon heads I remember and the blue grafalloy light weight shaft was certainly easy to swing.

But, contrary to the claims that the head was confidence-inspiring, I didn’t find it so, or particularly forgiving. Mishits finished where mishits should – shortish and rightish, with the occasional straight nobbler off the bottom of the club, which stung the fingers.


Integra Viktory II.

The Viktory II comes from the same stable as the monster Integra Super Forged 450 Bti driver and at a more affordable price than most big-hitting weapons on the market.

Integra Golf UK even offers your money back if the Viktory II doesn’t strike the ball longer and straighter than your current driver.

Head to head it was 5-10 yards longer than the Ping Si3 but again didn’t inspire confidence and was even less forgiving. Several others of similar stature and handicap wouldn’t swap it for their Cobra SS 430s.

One told me: "Once you’ve got used to a big flat head sitting there, the 370cc head on the Viktory II, with its deep face, makes it look more like a 3-wood and you’ve really got to hammer it to get the distance. And that leads to mishits."

Integra’s Vinnie Ball makes a sound point when he says: "We think ‘good value for money’ has been overlooked in golf club retail. It’s insulting to the golfer to be charged up to £450 for the latest offering only to see it on sale for £150 in the golf discount superstores six months later. That’s why we offer a money-back guarantee if customers aren’t satisfied."

My final benchmark was to try to hit both off the deck – which has become a bit of an obsession, if not a speciality of mine. Neither performed well but to be honest I didn’t expect it. Hitting off a tall tee peg was difficult enough.

Verdict

With its distinctive black and blue simulated leather headcover and blue shaft, the Ping Si3 looks the business, and the feel off the face when struck well produced a dampened feedback, but the 10 degree version I tested didn’t deliver the flight characteristics I’d expected. In comparison, the Viktory II looked good value for money and was longer off the tee – but for me, lacked the forgiveness I’d seek.

Golfmagic rating: Ping Si3 8/10; Integra Viktory II 7.5/10


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Discuss this story

I was really interested to read Bob's review of the Ping SI3. The club is designed to hit a lower trajectory than many of the drivers on the market such as the Cobra and this was one of the reasons I liked it. Hitting long high balls is great...until you have to play in a crosswind !! I have heard other people find it difficult to get the ball airborne with this club but I don't. I chose this after trying every other top driver at a demo day at Southport and after receiving superb advice from the Ping fitter, settled on a 10 degree blue. My driving consistency has improved tremendously with this club. I find it both easy to hit and accurate. For me it's a quality piece of kit and worth every penny I paid. Although I have always had confidence in using a driver and prefer it to a 3 wood off the tee, I have always struggled to find consistency. I tried the Wilson Deep Red for a while and and at times hit it long and straight but every so often I would top one for no apparent reason. I had a Cobra for a while after that and sometimes hit it for miles dead straight but too many times, I sliced drives way off to the right. Both drivers hit the ball so high it was a nightmare trying to control them in a wind. The interesting thing is that what all this proves is that what suits one person may well not suit another, so the answer must be try the club first at a demo day, don't just believe what you read.
Posted: 19/09/2003 22:57

As you say, Andrew, what suits one... and it's purely a personal opinion - by no means a definitie review of the club.

As well as myself, I put it in the hands of several other playing companions most of whom were single figure high ball hitters. It flew too low for their tastes, while I hit it consistently low. On the course I most regularly play, you need a fair amount of carry to find a good position in the fairway. This club didn't suit me, but I'm sure it would suit others like yourself.

My job here is to give a personal but balanced review. I hope that's what comes over.

In conclusion it would be greatly appreciated if you can submit you personal observations on the club to our user review section.


Posted: 20/09/2003 17:16

No problem at all with your review Bob. The pro at my local driving range said exactly the same as you found in your review. My point was really that it has been noticable to my playing partners how consistent my driving has become since I bought this club, and I was so pleased with it I think I have already done a review saying something like "Is this the most accurate driver yet?" You tend to expect that because you have success with something that it would have the same effect for everyone. This is obviously not the case.

I just find it interesting that a club that I feel very comfortable with doesn't suit you at all. I played in a competition last week with a guy who is just waiting for a Cleveland Launcher to arrive and found this club suited hime best. I couldn't get away with it at all when I tried it.

What I conclude from this is that reviews are a good starting point to determine what to look at if you are in the market for new equipment, but it is essential to try clubs first, and if possible seek some profesional advice about fitting equipment to your swing.


Posted: 21/09/2003 16:09

Bob, I have submitted a review of the club in the equipment section. I think I put the first one on the forum. One other advantage I found with this club is that it is quiet to hit !! When I had a Cobra I used to get complaints at the driving range about the ear splitting noise it made !!
Posted: 22/09/2003 00:06

The best thing about this club is that it isn’t as popular as the previous model, and so you can find them cheap - new and second hand. Several pro’s I have spoken to have been negative about the Si3 and Golfbidder told me that they had loads of new ones because the professionals were cutting their losses and trading them in.

When I tried it, I liked it a lot – it does hit the ball low but this is not necessarily a bad thing for slicers like me. I did find it disappointing though when Lee Westwood won recently with a TM 580 under a Si3 headcover…

A larger headed (360cc I think) version is about to be launched

Cheers

Nick
Posted: 22/09/2003 10:46

Bob, I'm a bit confused. If I read the review correctly, you don't use a driver when you play anyway.Is that correct?
Posted: 22/09/2003 15:00

I'm pleased someone else likes this club Nick! Your news about the SI3 must be a disappointment for Ping. Surely we can't be the only ones who want to hit the ball lower. I find I can hit a higher ball with it if I need to and I certainly don't have any trouble getting the ball airborne. I notice on the Ping website they have reduced the lie options on their new fairway woods and the blue code I like doesn't feature.

I would be prepared to buy another SI3 at the right price as a spare ! Interesting your discovery about Lee Westwood....I noticed Olazabal had an R580 under his McGregor V Foil headcovers at Loch Lomand !! When I went to see the Ladies at Lytham there were quite a few SI3s being used there though.
Posted: 22/09/2003 22:28

I have a love hate relationship with my TM 580 and often threaten to banish it to the garage or to Golfbidder... I suspect that in the end I will try the Si3 but I am trying to curb my unhealthy desires...

I do have the Tisi Tec 3 & 7 woods and find these are as good as any others I have tried. The problem Ping and any other manufacturers have is trying to constantly reinvent themselves to drive new sales. I'm sure that I hit the original black Tisi driver as far as I do the current "go faster" models.

Yes you are right about the fitting element - with the Si3 Ping provided the ultimate choice of loft, lie, closed, open but in so doing they created a nightmare for the professionals trying to sell them. I found that in my testing of this club, I was more often than not better informed then the supposed experts selling the clubs. If you are thinking of buying a spare then I suggest waiting a bit as I'm sure that prices will drop further especially when the 380cc model is launched.

Cheers

Nick
Posted: 23/09/2003 10:01

Maybe David the clubmaker could explain the factors affecting trajectory?

I remember the problem with the original titanium Great Big Bertha was keeping the ball down, so much so that I ended up with a 6.5 degree one. It also required a high tee with a bit more than half the ball sticking out over the top. Putting a stiffer and different shaft on made no difference.

Now when i tried the ERC 2 I expected the 10 degree to send it into orbit but it went about the same as the 6.5 GBB. Also, I couldn't hit it off a high tee.The best position is with the top of the ball level with the top of the club.

The question is whether it's the 'new' smooth face that imparts less spin or whether the indicated degrees of loft actually mean anything? May be other factors too.

It's all very puzzling.

Posted: 23/09/2003 13:48

I tried am R580 for a while and it hit the ball miles..... sometimes.... but it didn't feel as solid as the Ping SI3 and it was not as reliable. I just feel I can put all sorts of swings on the Ping and I will get a result. With the R580 I had to put a more careful swing on it. As you say Nick the different lofts, lies and face angles do make it difficult for the shops to stock and I think the distributor conned a few by not revealing up front that this club hits the ball lower than others and certainly lower than the Tisi Tec which was designed to get the ball up. So much so in fact that an 8.5 felt more like a 10.5. I will take your advice and wait for the price to come down.

David,
When I was at "Golf in the Park" in Southport, the Taylor Made reps told me that the secret with most modern drivers including the Taylor Made range is to tee the ball high as this is how they are designed to perform. Teeing the ball low can have the opposite effect to what you would think and encourage a skier. As you say it is getting very technical but certainly interesting.


Posted: 23/09/2003 20:38

I tried an R580 for a while and it hit the ball miles..... sometimes.... but it didn't feel as solid as the Ping SI3 and it was not as reliable. I just feel I can put all sorts of swings on the Ping and I will get a result. With the R580 I had to put a more careful swing on it. As you say Nick the different lofts, lies and face angles do make it difficult for the shops to stock and I think the distributor conned a few by not revealing up front that this club hits the ball lower than others and certainly lower than the Tisi Tec which was designed to get the ball up. So much so in fact that an 8.5 felt more like a 10.5. I will take your advice and wait for the price to come down.

David,
When I was at "Golf in the Park" in Southport, the Taylor Made reps told me that the secret with most modern drivers including the Taylor Made range is to tee the ball high as this is how they are designed to perform. Teeing the ball low can have the opposite effect to what you would think and encourage a skier. As you say it is getting very technical but certainly interesting.


Posted: 23/09/2003 20:38

The factors which effect Trajectory can be listed as such:
Major Factors - Loft, Set Makeup
Medium Factors - Face Progression/Hosel Offset (woods), Centre of Gravity
Minor Factors - Face Angle, Shaft Flex, Shaft Bend Point, Shaft Torque, Face Progression/Hosel Offset (irons), Weight Distribution

The three factors which are discussed more than any others are loft, centre of gravity and weight distribution.
Loft is a major factor of trajectory in the woods. The greater the loft, the higher the shot; the lesser the loft, the lower the shot.

Centre of gravity is a medium factor of trajectory. The lower the CG of the clubhead in relation to the CG of the ball at impact, the higher the trajectory of the shot. In woods, the farther back from the clubface the CG is, the higher the trajectory will be.

Weight distribution is a minor factor of trajectory. Weight distribution will only effect trajectory if the distribution is such that enough mass is low on the clubhead to effect a low CG.

To hit the ball lower consider decreasing the loft, lowering the centre of gravity, and choosing a set of woods with an offset hosel. While the other specifications do have some effect on hitting the ball lower, their effect is minimal and can only be a factor if that specification in the previous set was very badly matched to your needs.

Posted: 23/09/2003 22:25

Thanks David. I'm very happy with my driver which goes pretty well as I want it.

What is major factor 'Set makeup'?

Have you measured the 'actual'loft of the drivers in question?

As an expert example can you tell us in detail why a Great BB 10 degree hits it FAR higher than the Ping SI3 10 degree?

Have to say I've never understood 'face angle'. I try and align the clubface with my target. If the darn thing is is pointing left then I'll make adjustments to point it straight. Do people really line up with the face pointing somewhere else!!!

All interesting stuff...love it.



Posted: 23/09/2003 22:45

David,
I haven't had a SI3 in the shop yet so I can only guess at the moment, and I think the major reason would be the shaft. Generally speaking the shaft flex and bend point are minor factors in trajectory, but upto know Ping shafts have a higher bend point and a swing speed rating of 80-90mph. This speed is the average driver swing speed for most club golfers. However the GBB shaft has a lower kick point and a swing speed rating of only 70 mph. Both factors will contribute and give a higher ball flight.
Posted: 24/09/2003 10:56

Sorry David,
Missed the point about face angle. This is the angle of a wood face when allowed to sit on the face in its neutral position. If someone is a slicer you can get a driver which has a closed face when the club is rested on the floor and vice versa for hooker. The idea is unlike an iron where you can manoeuvre the face, with a wood the face is pre set one other or the other in an attempt to partial correct a swing fault.

Posted: 24/09/2003 11:01

Thanks David but what is 'set makeup'?

Actually, you can manoeuvre a wood's face to the detriment of your swing by moving it back in the stance if it's closed and vice versa. Anyone who likes to see the face pointing where they intend to hit it could well do this subconciously, or worse if you line up the body to the clubhead. I suspect face angle causes far more problems than it solves!

Jack Nicklaus was one of the few golfers who used to hit a draw by lining up as usual then just closing the face slightly and re-gripping. The majority of people's brains, seeing the closed face, would block it straight!



Posted: 24/09/2003 15:03

David,
Set make up is choosing the correct clubs for the individual golfer. This is for overall improvement. In this discussion of drivers it does not play a part. However, for example if the golfer wanted to hit higher long shots, his long irons could be replaced with fairway woods. For each iron (even up to 9 iron) there is a substitute fairway wood which will hit the ball higher and land softer. Conversely if he needs to hit the ball lower use more long irons. It is a question of removing the clubs the golfer does not like (or need) and substituting them with clubs the golfer does like (and need)
I agree you can manoeuvre the clubface to the desired angle, but having a club with an open or closed face angle, presents this without any manipulation of the club. It is there for a golfer who has a persistent fault. This enables him to have the club sat flat on the ground before each swing making each swing more repeatable and therefore hopefully more consistent.
Posted: 26/09/2003 10:00

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