1 or 2 club-length?

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1 or 2 club-length?
simple question I guess so shall I expect a simple answer?

USUALLY, though there are probably exceptions, if it is a free drop it's one clublength, if it's a penalty drop it's two.

I can't think of any exceptions to Harry's reply. One other thing is that one club length is always measured from a nearest point of relief.

No it isnt JazzDad.If you declare your ball unplayable (which you can do anywhere on the course except in a water hazard) the two clublengths are taken from where the ball lies.

so I take it it's from the nearest point of relief if the hazard is delineated by stakes or a line on the ground, otherwise from where the ball lies?

It is measured from whatever reference point is stated in the particular rule. You cannot generalise.

We're working on a generalisation (HP's answer which is what I would have given) so for jazzdad to generalise further is OK. His is that if there's no penalty involved, the measure is indeed from the (not "a" unless there is more than one) nearest point of relief. Top of my head I can't think of a free drop situation that deosn't require NPR. But then I'm generalising ...

Nick,I don't understand your point. Or you don't understand mine.Declaring a ball unplayable does not involve a nearest point of relief.

Jazzdad...yes I misinterpreted your post to mean that WHENEVER you take relief it is allways from a NPOR. For some reason at the time my brain filtered out the "one" before the words "club length".I reread your post several times before replying so can only hold my hands up and say that this is only the latest in a recently increasing number of occaisions when I've got Wucking Murds Fuddled.:-)

It's an easy rule of thumb to remember - 1 clublength free relief, (R. 24, 25) 2 clublengths 1 penalty stroke (R. 26, 28)But with that easy saying players often forget, that the Nearest Point of Relief has to be established before measuring the 1 clublength in Rules 24 and 25. The NPR is determined - yes, there's only one NPR - and from that point the ball must be dropped within one clublength not nearer the hole.NPR is ONLY used when the player is acting according to Rules 24 and 25. (Not when dropping from a hazard)

or unplayable ;-)

"Hazard" was mentioned specifically in an earlier posting in connection with NPR.But of course unplayable should be mentioned in the same sentence. It might be tempting to find the NPR before taking the 2 clublengths when dropping the ball away from an unplayable lie in a large bush... but no can do.I guess it goes something like - "if I have to pay 1 penalty stroke for this, at least I deserve a free swing...", but whenever 26 (water hazards) or 28 (unplayable) are the Rules to follow, the measuring is from a crossing point (26), or a position (28).

Could someone clarify the nearest point of relief scenario for me please. I understand, for example, the situation where the ball comes to rest next to a tree trunk, under a bush etc. and the nearest point of relief might be reasonably in the clear. But, say the ball comes to rest in a similar position in the middle of a shrub/ tree infested area. The nearest point of relief from the offending shrub/tree trunk would give a clean swing but the density of the surrounding foliage does not give a cat in hells chance of getting out. What are my options, stay in there, thrashing about, till the rescue teams come I suppose.

All the scenarios you mention have one thing in common. You declare your ball unplayable - Rule 28 - and you do not use NPR with that Rule.Your option are:Drop a ball 2 clublengths from the position of the unplayable ball, not nearer the hole, orDrop a ball on a line from the hole/ball position a back as long as you like, orReplay your shot

The Rules, where Nearest Point of Relief is used, is Rule 25-1 about abnormal ground conditions: casual water, molehills etc, Rule 25-3: wrong green and Rule 24-2 about immovable obstructions (Rule 24-3 guides back to Rule 24-2)

Thanks Rules-Doc. Up to now, that is what I have done if I have found myself in a position where a feasible chance of getting out was not possible. This thread with the 2 club lengths discussion was making me wonder if I was doing something wrong.

DBYou only get relief from the object itself. If you are taking relief from a path (say) with 6' wide holly tree exactly where the npr is (if the tree wasn't there), you either play it as it lies or take a chance on dropping within one clublength of the npr (which is in the middle of the tree. You must decide what you are going to do before you pick up the ball, you can't change you're mind after you see the drop finish. If you are unlucky and end up in the tree either play it as it lies or use Rule 28.

On the subject of rules. I have recently joined a club with quite a lot of water and ditches. Can you clarify the different types of penalties should my ball go in the water/ditch. What's the difference between red and yellow markers? When can I ground my club? Where do I take a drop?Is there an easy way to remember all of the answers to the above lol

DH thanks, sod's law that is where my ball will end up later today. Interesting how when a thread like this evolves, if you read the rule book in conjunction with the posts how much easier it is to understand the damn book. Cheers DB.

To LGL - ""Yellow stakes - water hazard "":Play the ball as it lies, you can not ground your club in a hazard, but it's ok to touch grass.Drop a ball on a line back from the crossing point into the hazard/hole as far back as you like. (26-1b)Replay your shot. (26-1a)""Red stakes - lateral water hazard"":The above options +You can drop a ball 2 clublengths from the crossing point not nearer the hole, and you can drop a ball on the other side of the hazard same distance from the hole, still 2 clublengths. (Rule 26-1c)A good way to remember? Bring the Rules book along.

LGLYou should be able to get a free copy of the rules from your club. If not, try the R&A, they issue them free.http://www.randa.org/index.cfm?action=shop.productdetail&productID=90&cf...You can also see them on-line athttp://www.randa.org/flash/rules/rules_rebrand2004_v2.html

Thanks DH, I find it easier to remember rules if I discuss them and was hoping someone had a system they use to help remember the water penalties.Guess I'll have to look them up and learn them parrot fashion.

LGLA few tips. Get to know the Definitions first.Understand the sequence in which the Rules are ordered. They follow a natural progression through the game.The basic rule is 'play the ball as it lies as long as it is within the boundaries of play'. If you can't, there will probably be a rule covering the situation. Try the daily/weekly quiz on either the R&A or USGA site. There are also some good animations and video clips on the USGA site www.usga.com

Thanks all for sharing you knowledge as well as additional questions. I guess all I have to do now is study the rules as per DH above