Slope question

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Slope question

Some members of my club think that when the Slope system eventually comes in that all roll up social scores will be recorded for handicap purposes. But like most clubs that have casual roll ups, putts are given, not played on a measured course, when in groups of 4 have match plays and stableford simultaneously and team games too. I have even been told this will be acceptable to our Authorities.

Can anyone clarify or give a view on this please?

It is certain that more

It is certain that more scores will be used than in the current CONGU or EGA 'qualifier' systems. The details of just what are still being thrashed out but it will certainly be a move towards the US system of 'all scores'. It is possible that individual national authorities will be able to pick and choose but as I say there is still a lot of talking to be done and everthing is being kept close to the chest. Little is being leaked.

My members club has

My members club has approximately 20 different unofficial roll ups, none have to putt out. If this has to change for scores to be recorded I worry about our course being even more clogged up with the pace of play and if the structure has to change, affecting enjoyment to many.

I add we do not have official tee times and all roll ups are just word of mouth.

Roll up structures:

A few larger ones, up to 40 members, that play for a lot of money for winners, playing match play and stableford simultaneously and team games. These larger ones have a history of putting pressure on handicaps to cut persistent winners who have failed to do well in the sufficient amount of medal qualifiers required, according to the UHS

Some, up to 18 members, play for much less money but inevitably have larger gimmes

Some that play only as teams, best 2 scores from 3 or 4, obviously playing as teams they have even larger gimmes

Some that play as teams but sometimes change to individual and then if numbers allow, play in 4BBB format

This must be reflected all over the country at other clubs, how do they get around this culture in the US?

I guess they don't. As I

I guess they don't. As I understand it, most golf in North America is played as singles stroke play; albeit with various complicated side bets.

But I reckon that the various non USGA handicapping authorities are aware of what happens in their neck of the woods.

Very different in US

I had 8 years in the US before returning to the UK, and played golf during those years. I found the handicapping system was very different.

What amazed me most was that scores in all rounds of golf, including the most casual friendlies, should be submitted for handicap purposes. And I should submit scores when playing alone. (That last point - counting scores in solo golf - changed in 2016, but in the face of many protests.) Also, that incomplete rounds should be assessed for handicap, providing a minimum number of holes had been played.

But - relevant to the issue of this post - there is also provision in the USGA system to allow for conceded putts. Here's an extract from their manual:

Most Likely Score

A "most likely score" is the score a player must post for handicap purposes if a hole is started but not completed or if the player is conceded a stroke. The most likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes the player would take to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. This number may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit. (See Section 4-3.)

 

With a smile I note that the estimate of the number of strokes that will be taken to complete the hole is made by the player, not the player's golfing buddies.

This ‘most likely score’ must

This ‘most likely score’ must be a sticking point in discussions for the WWHS.

Does anyone know if EG are happy to follow this for all their affiliated clubs?

 

The way to stop all these

The way to stop all these bluddy bandits, for it is they who cause all the hassle, is that when anyone wins a comp, their handicap is reduced to what they played top. FULL STOP! If you can play to it once you can do it again.I've no sympathy whatsoever and will not accept any arguement against this idea, for there is none apart from bandits.

To the best of my knowlege

To the best of my knowlege that is not in the proposals.

It has to be on the agenda

It has to be on the agenda though. Surely North America would need to change to always putting out for any handicapping adjustments?

I doubt if they will give up

I doubt if they will give up ESC. But we shall see next month.

Who putts out in stableford?

But Crazyface's point was about the way handicaps are reduced.

 

 

That is the main problem, in

That is the main problem, in qualifiers you must putt out for your points, in most social golf roll ups you don’t for all points rewarded.

We all know that a very small putt is more likely to be missed when playing under qualifying conditions.

In a one fits all WWHS I can’t see EG adopting ESC, so something will need to give from North America?

The original intention was

The original intention was that would be facilities for local regional 'traditions' or words to that effect.

DH, do you now know any more

DH, do you now know any more about my query, regarding putts being given for stableford scores in roll ups to be accepted under the new WHS?

Sorry for not getting back

Sorry for not getting back sooner but I have been immersed in the 2019 Rules of Golf.

 

There are a couple of "knowns" and some significant "unknowns" (ie the details are still being worked on).

1) The highest hole score to be counted for handicap purposes will be net double bogey

2) Scores from non competition rounds (including 'casual', matchplay, 4BBB, 2 from 3) will be eligible and returns will be encouraged.

 

The draft says such scores must be 'attested'. It is not yet clear if this means pre-registered (a la supplementary scores) but certainly means marked. Currently, the USGA & Canada only require the player to be accompanied.

The details of how the scoring and recording will work is not yet known. The USGA have a process but it is unlikely to be adopted wholesale. A lot statisticians are locked away number crunching I understand.

The new system will use the average of the best 8 scores from the last 20. This will be taken from the data on the CDH. But the formula and probable additional process for players who played fewer than 20 hasn't been finalised. Additionally, how handicaps will be adjusted for players who play very few rounds during the year hasn't been settled.

 

Incidentally, England Golf have invited clubs to send two representatives to a series of workshops around the country during the next couple of months.

 

Thanks DH, I already knew

Thanks DH, I already knew most of that.

But when playing roll ups, putts given for points scored vary greatly in length, depending on different circumstances

• a group out of contention to win will often give larger putts than those not

• different roll ups have different lengths of putts given, like within the grip or such

• some don’t have gimmees

• how many in a roll up and the cost to enter can affect this too

At a club like mine with so many players on it at one time, especially weekends, in all the different roll ups, I hate to think of the pace of play problems.

From what I can gather it is a very different approach in Britain to casual golf?

My understanding at this

My understanding at this stage is that it will not be compulsory to return  such scores

So are such scores, basically

So are such scores, basically gimmees recorded by a marker towards your score, going to be acepted by the R&A towards adjusting handicaps?

 

If you don't put out when the

If you don't put out when the rules of the particular game require you to (medal strokeplay) then there will be a procedure for entering a score. Where a game does not require putting out (matchplay, BB, stableford), again there will be a procedure.

However, no details have yet been released.

Any golf handicap qualifying

Any golf handicap qualifying competition in Britain under CONGU rules has alway required the player to putt out to allow a correct score (Medal or Stableford) to be recorded for each hole played during the round and must be confirmed by your marker.

To me any change to that fundamental requirement would be criminal!

So at the very least any casual / social golf scores that any player has not putted out, especially with all the relaxed and variant elements as above that can be involved, should never be considered for handicap adjustments.

Or am I missing something?

I think you are. The

I think you are. The difference between the Rules of Golf and the Regulations of a handicapping system.

From Appendix P in the CONGU Manual relating to disqualified scores

Nature of breach: Failure to hole out in stroke play

Action for Handicap purposes: Adjust score for hole at which offence occurred under Clause 19
(Stableford / Nett Double Bogey Adjustment)

NB. This does not change the DQ for competition purposes.

PS. I think there is an equivalent in other systems.

DH, I see your point but I

DH, I see your point but I did not mention disqualification, just that they should not count towards a handicap adjustment.

Surely, gimmees in stableford roll ups are recorded as legitimate shots not as Nett Double Bogey Adjustments. Therefore marked down incorrectly. So they can never be used for handicap purposes.

I'n not clear about the

I'n not clear about the format bein played. Is it match play ? Are the players giving the concession partners, opponents ot jusy players in the same group playing for a team score? Is it best 2 best of 3 or similar.

But I reckon it will be a matter of waiting til they publish the details.

 

I am referring to individual

I am referring to individual stableford roll ups where your playing partners are opponents and putts are given as a stroke towards your points for each hole.

How can these scores count as qualifying under the new WHS?

 

Please clarify the format. I

Please clarify the format. I am confused

Playing partner is a term used to mean what is defined as a fellow competitor in a strokeplay (which includes stableford) competition. 

Opponents are players you play against in matchplay )ie the best score wins the hole).

Is it matchplay or stroke play?

How many players in a group?

Is each player playing a singles match against each other in the group? 

Are they all playing indvidual rounds?

 

Edit:

However, there has no announcement yet about how concessions will be scored.